On The Right Track?

[chilicheezconey]

Hi. My objective is to become a career pilot, preferably in the airlines. I would like to know if I am on the right track though. I'm 32 years old and currently working on an instrument rating (ASEL). I've already passed the written and should be finished with the rating in October. I also have bachelor's degree in business and sound work experience. Am I on pace for an aviation career? I need some input from anyone who really knows. Many Thanks.

 

[350DRIVER]

I don't think that you will encounter any problem at your age. I have met, trained, flown with pilots that were much older than you when they first started their flight training. Many regionals, majors, 135 departments, etc, have hired pilots who were much much older than you. I think you are on the right track, only question is whether or not you realize what the pay is going to be once you finally tap into this industry?


If this is truly what you want to do then don't let your age stop you since it will have no bearing on you once you complete your flight training and build your flight time(s) and experience up enough to be competitive to get that initial break.


good luck

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[HairOnFire!]

Chilicheez, Everything is based on pilot in command (PIC) time, preferably in multi-engine jets. Find a way to get a job in anything multiengine and build time, then get PIC time in that, then move to turbines (jets), then get PIC time in them. Good luck. "It's a great job if you can hold on to it."

 

[bobbysamd]

Aviation career-changing track

Hi. My objective is to become a career pilot, preferably in the airlines. I would like to know if I am on the right track though. I'm 32 years old and currently working on an instrument rating (ASEL). I've already passed the written and should be finished with the rating in October. I also have bachelor's degree in business and sound work experience. Am I on pace for an aviation career? I need some input from anyone who really knows. Many Thanks.

I feel that I know, having moved from broadcasting to aviation in 1988 at age 37.

You have your degree, so your ticket is punched there. There is no need to rush through your ratings, but you do want to move forward to finish them. In that regard, you should finish all of your instructor ratings and plan on instructing. Hopefully, your training provider hires its own graduates.

Then, it's a matter of gaining experience and climbing the ladder one rung at a time. I would just suggest that you keep an open mind regarding your eventual goal. There maybe a shrinkage in the jobs available at the majors because more and more of them are vending their much of their work to the regionals. You may find that the regional that you were hoping to use as a stepping-stone to the majors might be your destination. You might not like that, so keep your eyes open on other areas of flying, such as corporate and freight. Finally, keep your CFI current. Your CFI is a tangible credential that can get you work.

Good luck with your plans.

 

[RockyMnt1]

Just another point of view

Since you have presumably been in the working world for awhile you might have some significant assets accumulated by now. If you are going to instruct make sure that you are covered liability-wise to protect your accumulated assets. Do this with either insurance, some sort of a corporate structure, or put all assets in someone else's name.

Just because you are an employee of a flight training company does not relieve the potential situation.

The usual course of events is that instructors are dirt poor with no assets so that liability protection of assets is about on the third page of the "to do" list. The liability assumed in such a case is acceptable because, if the instructor is sued, there is nothing to collect (No "deep pockets" here!). Maybe not so in your case.

Instructors take on a bunch of risk and the potential for legal action against them is high. You need to do anything and everything to manage that risk (Like detailed training records!). That goes double for the instructor that has assets.

I only accept people that I know very well and tend not to instruct private pilots anymore becasue of this issue. Sad that insurance companies/lawyers rule our lives to the extent that it does.

Just a thought.

 

[Timebuilder]

I second what Bobby has told you, and I'll add an observation.

I turned back to aviation (many years after flying with my dad in his Bellanca) at a more advanced age than Bobby, in my 40's. While 350 is right (I haven't said that in a while) and I am sure that there are guys older than you are in initial training programs right now, I also believe that those numbers of us who are not regional FO's in their 20's and early 30's are decreasing.

For one thing, a decent paycheck is a greater issue for those of us who have been adults for more than a decade. A typical regional FO only get 18k in his first year, and there is a line going out the door of fresh-faced youngsters who want that little job, all hoping to get to the Big Show and get the commensurate paycheck. While many "love to fly," I wonder aloud how many of them are there for that specific reason. While I love to fly, I am no longer willing to ride the wages lower and lower for jobs that used to support a family.

Yes, the big pay jobs are slowly going away. Not all of them, but a great amount. There will always be large aircraft crossing the U.S. and the oceans, and they will pay well. However, their numbers are a fraction of the previous flock of large planes. Your chances of getting one of those jobs is statistically small.

The lower paying jobs are still growing. When someone needs to hire a pilot for his new "personal jet" in a couple of years, you can count on that being a job for a "retired pilot," one who can satisfy the insurance requirements and training (he will probably have to pay for his own training to be competitive with the other furloughed airline guys who will line up for a chance to get away from the cribbage game at the community center) and the result is that few jobs will be generated on an entry level in these single pilot aircraft.

Regional jet jobs are still growing, too, but there will be a saturation point where growth effectively stops, because of the large number of younger pilots who have not developed health issues and have nowhere else to go. Some WILL trickle off to fill the jobs of retiring large body captains, but the number of aircraft the remaining captains are called upon to fly will also be shrinking.

So, for the vast majority of pilots entering the market with an airline career in mind, the smaller regional jet is the destination. Many legs, long days, crash pads, lower pay.

Others will "network" well and perhaps find a good corporate job, starting out in a turboprop and moving to a jet from there. Better lifestyle, better pay than a regional. Some will find a home in charter, which has also seen a downward pressure on wages due to the large numbers of experienced pilots looking to find a job, any job.

So yes, really loving to fly, and seeing that as something that will realistically be a long lasting love, is the key to pro pilot happiness. I don't know many guys like that after they have flown for pay for twenty years. It turns out that what they loved was the idea of flying and getting paid well to do it, which isn't quite the same thing as loving to fly. Once they take a lower paying job because of being displaced, they are far less happy. Part of that is due to the personal toll that being away from home all the time can bring, along with the drinking and divorce aspects. If you read this board for a while, you will also see that a great many pilots are hostile to the idea of a higher power, but that's all I can tell you in this forum. Suffice it to say there is some unhappiness as pilots have lost jobs and families in the past several years.

So, choose this with eyes open, and your research complete.

Otherwise, get your license, get a job that can't be oursourced, and take your wife out for a $100 hamburger.

 

[English]

When someone needs to hire a pilot for his new "personal jet" in a couple of years, you can count on that being a job for a "retired pilot," one who can satisfy the insurance requirements and training (he will probably have to pay for his own training to be competitive with the other furloughed airline guys who will line up for a chance to get away from the cribbage game at the community center) and the result is that few jobs will be generated on an entry level in these single pilot aircraft.

I agree with most of what Timebuilder wrote, except for this part. There are MANY jobs open right now in "personal jets" (the CJ) and when the Eclipse and other microjets finally come out, there will be more. But, I believe those jobs are going to go to low-time pilots in the range of 2000TT. I've seen several CJ jobs recently go to low time pilots. Heck, my first CJ captain position was when I had 2500 hours. There was a guy at my former company hired to fly the CJ single pilot with only 1500 TT.
The average pay for this type of position is 60K a year. It's a great alternate job to the regionals, enabling one to make at least decent money for a few years while getting jet PIC time. The insurance at many places isn't an issue. If the airplane is being management by a professional company, most likely the only insurance requirement is that the Director of Operations has to approve the pilot. I never had an insurance issue flying the CJ with my flight times and experience level.

I disagree that retired guys will be taking these jobs. I tried getting a retired Eagle captain a job flying a CJ single-pilot. Although the guy was physically in great shape, I was told the owner had reservations about an older pilot flying him around single-pilot. I guess there was concern he'd have a heart attack or something, then who'd be left to fly the airplane?

To chilicheez, no worries, you are on track. Just keep up the pace. I was in your place at about the same age, and now I'm working for a great little airline. It all depends on you and your motivation level. Good luck and don't get discouraged.

 

[Timebuilder]

There is only one problem: insurance.

While some operators see a profit potential for operating a CJ with the insurance requirements of a 2000 hour pilot, I doubt if the individual owner who would not spend 3.5 million on a Lear but who would spend far less on a microjet would be willing to pay the insurance premium for a low time PIC in a single pilot jet.

I could be wrong, but recent insurance trends seem to me to argue against it.

A local turboprop operator has an insurance company that wants over 5,000 hours for a PIC.

Wow.

My former charter outfit (the piston one) was paying over 27,000 a year for a chieftain just three years ago, and was told it would be going to over 30k. This resulted in both planes being sold.

I suppose we will just have to wait and see. I'm not very optimistic, given these events.

 

[English]

I see it happening all around me.

 

[350DRIVER]

There is only one problem: insurance.

I must agree 100% with Timebuilder on this one.... I have not met any part 135 or 91 flight department for that matter that has ever put a 1500 hour TT pilot in the left seat of a CJ let alone doing this single pilot, this is surely not the norm and if it would happen (highly unlikely) then that company is going to be paying astronomical insurance rates. I have a very hard time buying into that since most of the insurance companies that I know and have dealt with in the past would never have written a policy to insure that low time of a pilot in the first place. When I was flying the CJ the insurance company even stipulated that on all part 135 legs that both pilots must have a type rating in the airplane even though the aircraft was type certificated for single pilot operations.

My first 135 captain gig was in a King Air and C421 at a little over 1300 hours total time & 600 multi-engine time, and it took months of negotiating between our company and the insurance company since the insurance wanted nothing less than 3000TT, 1000 multi, and 500 turbine PIC for King Air captain. They wanted 2000TT and 500 multi for the C421. Fortunately the insurance company finally gave in and wrote the policy and all was well in the end but it surely was not an easy task, keep in mind I also had formal school on both airplanes and had a decent amount of time in both already.

1500 TT for a CJ captain, highly unlikely if not impossible. You would be lucky to be able to meet insurance reqt's on light jets as a first officer at that total time.

Insurance reqt's are dictating much of what is going on in the 135 and 91 world, just take a look at the current job openings and just how much TT these places are requiring the applicants to have.

just a few....

May 20, 2004
AERO NATIONAL INC (Citation II First Officer)

Tel: no calls

Email: Click Here to Apply
Web Site: none

2000 TT, 1000 multi-engine time, 250 jet, 100 make and model and type rating a plus.

keep in mind this is for a Citation II F.O position...


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May 20, 2004
JET PROFESSIONALS, LLC (Lear 60 Captain Position)

Tel: no calls

Email: Click Here to Apply
Web Site: http://www.jet-professionals.com

4000TT, 3000 PIC, 3000 multi, 200 in type, 100 PIC in type.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


May 18, 2004
EXEXCUTIVE FLITEWAYS, INC. (Hawker 700/800 First Officers)

Tel: no calls

Email: Click Here to Apply
Web Site: http://www.fly-efi.com


requires ATP rating OR ATP written, 2500TT, 2000 PIC, 1500 multi, past part 135 experience,
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May 17, 2004
SUNDANCE AVIATION (Part Time 135 Charter Pilot) Seneca V and Baron 58.

Tel: no calls

Email: Click Here to Apply


2500 TT, 500 multi, and previous part 135 experience for insurance purposes.


wow

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SOUTH TEXAS AIR FREIGHT (Pilatus PC-12 Captains)

Tel: no calls

Email: Click Here to Apply
Web Site: http://www.flystaf.com


2500TT, 500 turbine, prior 121 or 135 experience a must.

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As you can see these are far from being on the low end..

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[English]

350,

Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I'm sorry you choose not to believe what I am sharing. Again, I was hired as a 135 single pilot PIC in the CJ with 2500 hours TT, no increase in the company's insurance. My co-worker had 1500TT, 135 single pilot PIC on the CJ. The problem at your previous company is likely the standing they held with their insurance company. Some companies have certain pilot hiring minimums to avoid paying a premium over their quoted rates. Others can hire pilots at any experience level as long as they have the DO's blessing.

The two management companies I worked for both had the ability to hire low time pilots without an increase in premium. Sorry, just because you say it ain't so doesn't make it true.

 

[FlyingSig]

I have to agree with English on this one. I've gotten low time pilots to be 135 PIC single pilot simply by having a lunch meeting with the insurance adjuster. Really it depends on how much liability you need to carry. I can get one pilot certified on a $25 million policy but not a $50 million policy ... depends on what you need. Small 91 flight departments often carry way more then they need.

 

[350DRIVER]

Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I'm sorry you choose not to believe what I am sharing.

Can you share with all of us just one job posting that is advertising a CJ job (PIC) that requires only 1500TT? I surely would love to see just one job posting with those mins and you will make me a believer. It is not that I choose not to believe what you are saying, it is more my experience as well as others who I have come in contact with in this industry. I know many that are currently flying the CJ1/2 135 single pilot at different companies and that 1500TT captain min. just is not reality.

I've gotten low time pilots to be 135 PIC single pilot simply by having a lunch meeting with the insurance adjuster.

If you have gotten guys with 1500 hours total time insurable to fly a CJ single pilot then you must really know something that many operators don't. Have you personally been able to accomplish this on the above mentioned aircraft?


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[English]

Can you share with all of us just one job posting that is advertising a CJ job (PIC) that requires only 1500TT? I surely would love to see just one job posting with those mins and you will make me a believer. It is not that I choose not to believe what you are saying, it is more my experience as well as others who I have come in contact with in this industry. I know many that are currently flying the CJ1/2 135 single pilot at different companies and that 1500TT captain min. just is not reality.





If you have gotten guys with 1500 hours total time insurable to fly a CJ single pilot then you must really know something that many operators don't. Have you personally been able to accomplish this on the above mentioned aircraft?


3 5 0

No worries. You and I obviously had different experiences. You are not going to believe anything I write because you did not personally experience it. That's cool, I can understand why your perceptions are what they are. I'm not here to convince you of anything. I merely want to make sure that comments made by both you and Timebuilder, that no way would a low timer be hired to fly a small jet single pilot, don't go by unchallenged.

As far as your comment about many operators not being able to do this, I know of FOUR CJ operators in SoCal and one in NorCal that can hire low time pilots to fly CJs single pilot. I think perhaps there was more difficulty wherever you had your experiences. Regardless, I stand by my comments. I am living proof that a low timer can be hired to fly a jet single pilot. Do you not believe me when I tell you I had 2500 hours TT when I first started flying the CJ and CJ2? Do you not believe me when I tell you my co-worker had 1500 hours when he went to FSI to get typed on the CJ? In fact, he had to get his ATP at the same time, if I remember correctly. Interesting that you want to see an adverisement for proof, but you won't take the word of my experience.

FWIW, when I found that particular job, it was not advertised. Also, the 1500 hour pilot was already employed at the company, and the position was never advertised. He started as a private pilot washing airplanes, became a Bonanza 135 PIC, then a Conquest 135 PIC, and then CJ 135 PIC AT 1500TT.

Sorry you didn't experience as many good breaks when you climbed up the ladder, 350. But please don't spout off about something you know knothing about. I was there, I lived it.

 

[350DRIVER]

As far as your comment about many operators not being able to do this, I know of FOUR CJ operators in SoCal and one in NorCal that can hire low time pilots to fly CJs single pilot. I think perhaps there was more difficulty wherever you had your experiences. Regardless, I stand by my comments. I am living proof that a low timer can be hired to fly a jet single pilot. Do you not believe me when I tell you I had 2500 hours TT when I first started flying the CJ and CJ2? Do you not believe me when I tell you my co-worker had 1500 hours when he went to FSI to get typed on the CJ? In fact, he had to get his ATP at the same time, if I remember correctly. Interesting that you want to see an adverisement for proof, but you won't take the word of my experience.

You may want to re-read my posts and responses, I am pretty sure that I questioned the 1500TT remark that you made although it does not surprise me that you are now trying to turn what you said around, whatever floats your boat.. So now your co-worker got the type at 1500 hours but was not the sole captain on the flight? That kind of makes a little more sense, re-read your replies....Can you name the operators that will hire someone at 1500 hours total time to be a single pilot CJ captain? Kind of thought so... Before you get all bent out of shape you can believe what you want to believe, be assured it has no bearing on me or most others who frequent this board. I think most can understand what kind of times are required for these types of positions. I was merely pointing out that I found your situation (1500 hour remark) very unique and I stand by my responses that state that I do not think hiring someone at 1500 hours total time to be captain (not co-captain, not typed guy in other seat, etc, ) is the norm in this industry within most flight departments.

Sorry you didn't experience as many good breaks when you climbed up the ladder, 350. But please don't spout off about something you know knothing about. I was there, I lived it.

Some can't change their gender to better help them out when it comes to the "shortcuts" in this industry, too bad UAL was not hiring since you would have had it made. It has been a nice ride, I have no complaints on my climb up the ladder... Amazing how this industry works...!!

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[English]

I'll ignore the rude remarks...

The rest, I'm sorry if I was unclear, let me make it very clear...the pilot I mentioned had 1500 hours TT, went to FSI the same week he hit 1500TT, came back from training, and immediately became a CJ (that's a Citationjet) captain, single pilot, 135 and 91. Granted, he flew with the Chief Pilot and the rest of us for a few weeks before being let go single pilot. So, maybe he had 1550 hours at the most when he was finally released to fly the CJ single pilot.

 

[English]

I must agree 100% with Timebuilder on this one.... I have not met any part 135 or 91 flight department for that matter that has ever put a 1500 hour TT pilot in the left seat of a CJ let alone doing this single pilot, this is surely not the norm and if it would happen (highly unlikely) then that company is going to be paying astronomical insurance rates. was well in the end but it surely was not an easy task, keep in mind I also had formal school on both airplanes and had a decent amount of time in both already.

1500 TT for a CJ captain, highly unlikely if not impossible. You would be lucky to be able to meet insurance reqt's on light jets as a first officer at that total time.

I was merely pointing out that I found your situation (1500 hour remark) very unique and I stand by my responses that state that I do not think hiring someone at 1500 hours total time to be captain (not co-captain, not typed guy in other seat, etc, ) is the norm in this industry within most flight departments.

No, you did not merely point out that my situation was unique. You said it was highly unlikely, if not impossible. Big difference, and in my book, a step away from calling me a liar.

Keep your United dreams to yourself.

 

[350DRIVER]

No, you did not merely point out that my situation was unique. You said it was highly unlikely, if not impossible. Big difference, and in my book, a step away from calling me a liar.

I am sorry to rattle your fragile emotional side, to me "highly unlikely" "if not impossible" does not mean that this can never happen. Once again I was merely pointing out that this is not the norm when it comes to these types of jobs and present day markets. You jumped around from Eagle, Shuttle, and I believe a few other regionals so I don't think your background makes you any sort of expert when it comes to this, perfect example your post and replies. This CJ gig was probably your only part 135/91 job that you had for not long, with that being said your experience with this 1500 TT thing is "unique" to what I have seen and many others. You can continue to give people false hopes of being able to obtain these sorts of jobs at 1500 hours, I personally will tell people how it is and not sugar coat my answers with "unique" experiences of a few who were in the right place at the right time. If you truly think I called you a liar then so be it, I was just posting out of my experience in this aspect of the industry as well as information that I have been given by numerous other do's, cp's, etc. I guess they are all probably just lying and we are all living in some sort of a fantasy world though.

Keep your United dreams to yourself.

I think the majority are aware of this so it would come as no surprise to many. Didn't you have enough fun on this topic on the regional board a month or so ago?

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[English]

I am sorry to rattle your fragile emotional side, to me "highly unlikely" "if not impossible" does not mean that this can never happen. Once again I was merely pointing out that this is not the norm when it comes to these types of jobs and present day markets. You jumped around from Eagle, Shuttle, and I believe a few other regionals so I don't think your background makes you any sort of expert when it comes to this, perfect example your post and replies. This CJ gig was probably your only part 135/91 job that you had for not long, with that being said your experience with this 1500 TT thing is "unique" to what I have seen and many others. You can continue to give people false hopes of being able to obtain these sorts of jobs at 1500 hours, I personally will tell people how it is and not sugar coat my answers with "unique" experiences of a few who were in the right place at the right time. If you truly think I called you a liar then so be it, I was just posting out of my experience in this aspect of the industry as well as information that I have been given by numerous other do's, cp's, etc. I guess they are all probably just lying and we are all living in some sort of a fantasy world though.






I think the majority are aware of this so it would come as no surprise to many. Didn't you have enough fun on this topic on the regional board a month or so ago?

3 5 0

Interesting that you think you know so much about me. Yes I worked at Eagle, but no, never at Shuttle, and did not jump around at other regionals. And, you are right, I only flew 135/91 for two years - what, I didn't pay my dues or something? I only qualify to share my experiences if I spent, how long 350, do you think 3 years is enough? Or maybe, 5 years? At what point do you deem me qualified to share my actual life experiences? Because I chose to move up the ladder rather than sit on it, I haven't paid enough dues or something?

Besides, how long did you fly the CJ? I have over 1000 hours in it. Does that still not qualify me to comment on hiring practices in CJs? Let's compare notes...how much CJ time do you have? How many CJ jobs did you apply for? How many did you interview for? How many offers did you have? Let's see who is more qualified to talk about CJ hiring practices and insurance requirements.

 

[capt_zman]

English,

Although it's true, I'm really surprised that a 135/91 operator would put a 1500TT pilot as PIC in a single pilot jet. I really can't see why they would do this, especially paying a decent salary such as 60k. I won't go so far as to say it's unsafe, but it's close.

You and I both know, being a captain is much more than flying from point a to point b.

It may be happening out there today, but it doesn't mean it's right. And it's certainly not the norm.


Z-