OK, soap box time!

[avbug]

I always thought a nutter was a candy bar. Or the big peanut-guy who fronts for Plantars. Or an attack dog that, well...bites.

Can't we all just get along?

 

[pilot773]

My my my. What a little party going on in here.
Being that I seem to be one of the few, if only, Muslim pilots who spend time in this forum I feel a need to defend my religion.
And before you get all bitchy and angry I said defend my religion, not defend those idiots who flew the jets into the buildings.
-
First off, Islam is NOT against other religions...hard as it may be for you people to believe. Conversion is NOT done at the point of a sword. Here's some history for you who have a hard time with this idea. Mohammed was exiled from Mecca when he first started to spread the religion. At the time it was an area full of idolatry and polytheists. He was forced to a city named Medina for several years. He returned to Mecca years later and conquered the city along with an army of Muslims. When the city was conquered, he gave orders that no one was to be forced to convert. Those who did so did so willingly, and those who did not were allowed to live peacefully there or leave, as they chose. When the Muslim armies captured the rest of Arabia and North Africa this same philosophy was followed. No one was ever forced at the point of a sword, not then and not now. Now before you slam Islam on this, Christians have followed similar paths in the past. Anyone ever hear of the Spanish Inquisition? Did you know that in Spain - when it was under Muslim rule - there was a thriving Jewish minority that lived side by side with Muslims?
OK, I'm sure you don't want to debate the finer point of history that you could care less about. Lets more on to more recent times.
-
Yes, there is no Pope in Islam. So? The meaning of religion, orany other belief, comes from how you interpret what is given to you. It is up to the individual to believe as they see fit and not have some old guy in a pointy hat tell you how you should believe and not believe. How many non-Catholics respect the Pope's every wish?
-

FlyingWeasel, you asked three very good questions. Here are some answers:
1. The same way that Charlemagne captured much of Europe under the guise of spreading Christianity. The same way the Spanish took over the New World under the guise of converting the "savages". Conquest has always been a way to spread religion in many parts of the world.
2. There is no Pope or "leader" of the religion so who will you listen to apologize? Tell you what...if it makes you feel better I'll go ahead and do it. On behalf of all Muslim living and dead I apologize for the things you listed and those you haven't listed.
3. I like how you didn't quote anything from the Bible or Torah about warfare. Take a gander at it and let me know what you find.
-
The world is not at war against Islam. The US is at war against terrorists. Big difference there. During WW2 the world wasn't at war against Germans...they were at war against Nazis.
-
pilot141...go check your facts. I don't know where you get your ideas from but they are sad and xenophobic. I hope your politics don't color your judgement when you have a Muslim passenger.
-
prodigal, Muslims are not still pissed about the Crusades. The average Muslim could care less or probably doesn't even know what a Crusade is. It is only the "enlightened" idiots who want to stir up trouble who care, just as some enlightened people of other religions bring up centuries old BS for whatever reason.
-
So whats the point? Simple: Everyone doesn't hate Christians just because of idiots like David Koresh or Tim McVeigh. They are not representative of the religion even though there may be those that support them. They are a bunch of friggin morons. Not all Muslims are like Mohammed Atta and his band of idiots. Don't generalize and stereotype all of us because of them. Personally, as a Muslim and an American, I hope all the bastards rot in hell.
-
Peace
Shalom
Salaam.

 

[Snakum]

"...Everyone doesn't hate Christians just because of idiots like David Koresh or Tim McVeigh....

Uhhh .... yeah ... I do.

Well, not just because of that ... go here to see why I am sometimes so hard on Christianity ....

http://www.godhatesfags.com/main/index.html

This isn't a parody site. This is a real website form a real group, the ones who 'picketed' Matthew Sheppard's funeral.

Minh

 

[Timebuilder]

Pilot 773-
First, since you are a Muslim, I'll ask you. Are you able to refute the claim that the terrorists are following a mandate from the quoran to kill the infidels, i.e.: us? Why are our so-called friends, the Saudis, raising money to support the families of suicide bombers?

Second, don't make the error of confusing Catholicism with Christanity. It's a common mistake, but a big one. Catholicism began when Constantine had a vision, and he decided to meld together the practices and doctrine taught by the apostles and their followers with the then-prevalent practices of pagan idol worshipers and polytheists. For those who trust the Bible as God's word, Catholics are no more Christian than Jews are.

The inquisition was clearly the work of evil masquerading as the work of God. Isn't that consistent with our first account of evil in the Bible? The evil one is a deceiver.

I hope this clears up that area for you. Muslims who think that this jihad business is a bunch of cr*p need to stand up and let their voices be heard. Speak up!

Snakum
Nowhere in the Bible are Christians instructed to take any kind of sanctions against homosexuals. There is no such scripture. It DOES tell the believer (and the non believer, since the text speaks to ALL mankind) that he must not lie down with a man as if he were a woman, which clearly designates the BEHAVIOR as being abhorrent to God. The logic applies equally to women lying down with women. The Bible makes quite clear right in the ten commandments that we 'shall not commit murder' (murder is from the original texts, and "kill" is a mis-translation). Murdering a homosexual is just as wrong as murdering anyone else.

 

[pilot773]

I forgot about Matt Shephard. I'm sure he appreciated all the peace-loving Christians in Wyoming. I actually sat next to a nurse once who was from Laramie. She was in the hospital working on him when he was brought in. Chilling stories from that lady.
-
Now to your questions Timebuilder. Yes, I can refute that claim. There is no MANDATE as you put it. Those idiots chose to believe this way for whatever stupid reason. As I said before, its all about interpretation. Their interpretation happened to be murderous. Most of us normal Muslims interpret that "mandate" as meaning to stamp out evil where you see it. Islam does not allow murder of innocents at all. Never has, never will.
Second, when did the Saudis raise money for the families of the bombers? I recall a telethon a few months back that was held there but that money was to go to Palestinians and not Saudis. Maybe I missed something
I know perfectly well that there are several denominations in Christianity - Catholics, Lutherans, Episcopalians/Anglicans, Church of Christ, etc etc. Do you know how many denominations there are in Islam? A Catholic may not support your assertion that they are no more Christians than Jews are. Are you Protestant?
I do agree with what you say about Muslims who disagree about this "jihad business" need to speak up. Unfortunately, as we learned during the Vietnam war, the silent majority is often not heard above the very vocal minority.
-
Hey, in case more people respond I won't be able to get to it today...about time to leave work and I won't have access until tomorrow.
Happy Landings!

 

[Timebuilder]

Exactly, 773. The Saudis raised money for Palestinian terrorists. These Saudis are Muslims...peace loving Muslims who support terrorist suicide bombers. I'm confused, too.

You're right about denominations. I don't have one, personally. I can tell you this: most people who have been deceived aren't aware of it.

Since you disagree with the terroist interpretation of "jihad", I recommend that you and others who share your viewpoint call in to as many talk shows as possible, write letters to the editor, contact TV stations, etc.

Make your voice heard.

 

[avbug]

Won't it be funny to leave this world one day, only to learn that we all worship the same source, same God, same person...from different persepctives and cultures? Won't we feel rather silly, then?

A wise individual once remarked that global religion is much like a volcano on a dark night. Lava and burning materials burst forth in the dark, landing on the slope of the volcano in isolated clumps. These hot spots burn brightly, all from the same source, but all isolated. Compared to religion, each one thinks it is the only one, the only source of correctness. In fact, each came from the same place, the same roots.

Enough of the my-dad-can-beat-up-your-dad stuff. We don't need to stamp out anybody. Extremists are by nature extreme. These need to be controlled. Not by virtue of their religion or even their beliefs, but by virtue of their acts. Not everyone who is of any given sect, tenet, persuasion, etc, should be lumped together.

The major religions of the world preach peace, and harmony. Individual people pervert these teachings, and cloud them with politics and economics. However, don't confuse teachings about love, peace, harmony, and personal development with acts of war. These are separate things. If a catholic offends you, take it up with the man, not the church. If a mormon offends you, deal with him as a man, not his church. If a muslim offends you, do likewise.

For the Christian crowd that would attack the muslim world, lets' not forget that Christ taught a parable about a good samaritan. Samaritans were a hated people, and this is why He used the example of a samaritan. Of all the people who could have been neighbor to the assault victim, it was the most despised and hated of all, a Samaritan. The intent of the parable was clear; brotherhood and the requirement to be neighbor to all isn't bound by religion or border or ethnicity. It extends to everyone of every persuasion and belief. The Samaritan demonstrated true Christlike attributes; these can be found in all people, all cultures.

We are all from the same place. Don't ever forget that.

Bad people exist. They always have, they always will. Injustices occur. That's life. Deal with each on it's own merit, but leave generalities by the wayside, where they belong.

 

[TheFlyingWeasel]

Pilot773,

This is an emotional subject for all concerned, I thank you for speaking your mind and answering those questions we have all tossed out on this forum.

I guess, in the end you and I will have to agree to disagree, it would be very hard, near impossible for me to change my views upon the subject and I do not expect to convert yours nor do I want to.

Weasel

 

[Timebuilder]

What you say WOULD be funny Avbug. And, that's an interesting analogy about the lava. I should point out, though, that the Bible doesn't teach that kind of ecumenicalism (equality of religious viewpoints) about God.

Hopefully, my post explained some major differences which never get an airing in the press. The sad truth is that there are many thousands of Muslims who fall into the "extremist" category. They have already pledged their willingness to destroy us, and demonstrated their ability to do so.

We can take action. Or, we can take another look at each other's shoes.

 

[bart]

Pilot 773:

Since you have offered to explain many of the fallacies about your religion/political system, perhaps you may explain some of the facts as well.

Please explain to me how about the time that Mohammed was exiled from Mecca that his writings and teachings dramatically changed ie from turn the other to cheek to slay the infidels and you will get virgins in paradise. Seems to me that about the same time Mohammed began seeking political power, his teachings changed.

I will agree there were no forced conversions... If you remained with your MONOTHEISTIC religion, you were spared and forced to pay taxes to support the Arab Empire, if you converted, no taxes. Were you an animist or an idolator, death was good enough because rather than being misguided, you did not believe in God - an infidel.

The facts of the history of your religion/political system are undeniable. What percentage of wars that are in progress on this planet right now involve Muslims? The better part of 4 out of 5, interesting in that Muslims make up 1 out of 5 on this planet. In my opinion, it is a great religion up to the time of the conquering of Mecca, where it took a turn and became a vehicle for acquiring political power. There are many clerics who wish to use your religion for political purposes: control of populaces. Why have you allowed this to happen?

Lastly, the subjugation of women in your religion is nothing short of barbaric. They are relegated to near slave status in all but the most modern of Islamic countries. Explain how this is part of Allah's plan... Seems it was part of man's plan as espoused by Mohammed.

 

[Timebuilder]

As long as we are looking at modern conflict, let's not forget The Sudan, where non-Muslims are routinely beaten, tortured, enslaved and murdered at the hands of their Muslim oppressors.

Other Muslim countries have stepped in and halted this horror.

What? They haven't?



Aha. I suppose they think it should continue in that case.

 

[Marmaduke McPug]

http://www.memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD38802

Here are just a few snips from the article, follow the link to read the whole thing.

QUOTE

Part I: Why We Fight the U.S.
"...Perhaps the [Islamic] nation is waiting for one Al-Qa'ida man to come out and clear up the many questions that accompany any communiqué, message, or picture [concerning September 11], to know the truth, the motives, and the goals behind the conflict with the Hubal [one of the pre-Islamic Ka'ba idols - referring to the U.S.] of our generation..."


QUOTE

The Entire Earth Must Be Subjected to Islam
"How can [he] possibly [accept humiliation and inferiority] when he knows that his nation was created to stand at the center of leadership, at the center of hegemony and rule, at the center of ability and sacrifice? How can [he] possibly [accept humiliation and inferiority] when he knows that the [divine] rule is that the entire earth must be subject to the religion of Allah – not to the East, not to the West - to no ideology and to no path except for the path of Allah?..."

QUOTE

Part II: The Blow Against the U.S. Will Come from Where Least Expected
"...The [premises] on which we base ourselves as an organization, and on which we base our operations and our method of action, are practical and realistic... They are also scientific and [in accordance with] Islamic religious law, and they give us confidence and certainty... In writing them and in [publicly] revealing them, I do not intend to be apologetic for what was done; I lay [these arguments] before you so as to emphasize that we are continuing with our blows against the Americans and the Jews, and with attacking them, both people and installations [so as to stress] that what awaits the Americans will not, Allah willing, be less than what has already happened to them. America must prepare itself; it must go on maximum alert; ... because, Allah willing, the blow will come from where they least expect it..."

QUOTE

Muslims Have Suffered from the U.S.'s Standing with Christians
"America's standing with the Christians of the world against the Muslims has stripped the camouflage from its face. Much can be said about this regarding the Sudan, the Philippines, Indonesia, Kashmir, Macedonia, Bosnia, and other tragedies. America's siege on the Islamic countries as punishment for their rebellion against its laws has transgressed all limits, and Muslims have suffered economic losses that outstrip the imagination."

QUOTE

Part III: The Islamic Justification for Al-Qa'ida's Jihad Against the U.S.
"The religious arguments on which we base ourselves in our Jihad against the Americans - the explanations that inspire us with confidence in the triumph of our religion, our belief, and our faith - are many, and this is not the place to enumerate them, as they are included in the books of the sages."

QUOTE

Islamic Law Allows Reciprocation against the U.S.
"If by religious law it is permitted to punish a Muslim [for the crime he committed] - it is all the more permitted to punish a Harbi infidel [i.e. he who belongs to Dar Al-Harb 'the domain of disbelief'] in the same way he treated the Muslim."

QUOTE

We Have the Right to Kill 4 Million Americans
"We have not reached parity with them. We have the right to kill 4 million Americans - 2 million of them children - and to exile twice as many and wound and cripple hundreds of thousands. Furthermore, it is our right to fight them with chemical and biological weapons, so as to afflict them with the fatal maladies that have afflicted the Muslims because of the [Americans'] chemical and biological weapons."

 

[B-J-J Fighter]

Muslims

There are to many muslim fundamentalists and they cause most of the trouble. The Saudis are 2 faced and extremists as well. I would like to beat the sh%#t out of all the extremists and terrorists one by one it would make me feel much better, at least liek I did my part.

 

[Marmaduke McPug]

Not all Muslims are bad people but it does seem that a disturbingly high number of them want to kill us and obliterate Israel.


Most Palestinians want to destroy Israel and deep in their hearts they want to drive all Israeli Jews into the sea

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Palestine-Remembered/Story417.html

 

[Marmaduke McPug]

Group Claims Responsibility for Pakistan Car Bomb
Reuters | June 14, 2002

KARACHI, Pakistan (Reuters) - A previously unknown group calling itself "Al-Qanoon" (law) claimed responsibility on Friday for a car bomb blast near the U.S. consulate in the Pakistani port city of Karachi that killed 11 people.

"We accept the responsibility for the bomb blast near the American consulate today," a handwritten statement delivered to media offices in Karachi said.

"America, its allies and its slave Pakistani rulers should be prepared for more attacks. The bomb blast is the beginning of Al-Qanoon's jihadi activities in Pakistan," it said.

Syed Kamal Shah, police chief of Sindh province of which Karachi is the capital, said police had received a copy of the statement and were taking it seriously.

"For us this Al-Qanoon organization is unknown. But as professionals we have to take this fax seriously and we will investigate."




I wonder, does the previously unknown group calling itself "Al-Qanoon" (law) consist mainly of little old ladies with knitting needles, or angry "right-wing" white males?

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[TurboS7]

Finally something worth talking about, I'll jump in when I have more time.....

 

[surplus1]

Second, don't make the error of confusing Catholicism with Christanity. It's a common mistake, but a big one. Catholicism began when Constantine had a vision, and he decided to meld together the practices and doctrine taught by the apostles and their followers with the then-prevalent practices of pagan idol worshipers and polytheists. For those who trust the Bible as God's word, Catholics are no more Christian than Jews are.

And that little tidbit is who's doctrine and according to what? Is that Protestantism, evangelism or what? Which of the more than 200 so-called protestant sects gave you this pearl of wisdom?

Tell me which "error" YOU have confused with Christianity? I'd like to know.

We walk on dangerous ground when we enter into debate over another man's choice of religion, particularly when those of a different regilion decide to tell him what he is or what he believes.

Would it be appropriate for me to tell you that evangelists and those of like mind are delusioned fruitcakes each living in his own little world of fiction and spewing venom against those with sufficient mentality to ignore his ravings, fables and stupidity? The modern day vendors of snake oil?

Let us defend our country against those that would attack us. When we discover who they are and where they are, let us take action to remove them before they have opportunity to remove us. Let us do so without regard or concern for their religious belief or their political motives or any combination thereof. Our porblem is to prevent their behavior.

Dwelling on their religious beliefs, what the book they read means or doesn't mean, how it compares with our religious myths and the books we read or don't read are irrelevant.

Stay away from the religious and focus on eradicating the threat from what ever source.

Religion and the pursuit of it is an invention of man. A conspiracy to usurp the domain of the Supreme Being and use it to exploit his fellow man. Recognize the existince of God, seek His council and guidance, follow it; but bundle up all the organized religions and place in file 13. That will remove the majority of the obstacles to understanding and unity with the Great Spirit.

 

[Snakum]

Boy ... the more I read here, the more I'm inclined to agree to banning all theistic religions. It seems the three which recognize the Old Testament are the worst offenders - Jews, Christians, Muslims - but the Hindus have their militants as well.

So guys ... it looks like you're all S-O-L ... it'll have to be Buddhism or nothing from now on! And I don't mean that silly "Buddha is a God" stuff the natives practice in the hamlets. I mean the logical, scientific variety as expoused in Sri Lanka and in most western Zen centers.

Rev. Thich Minh Thong
(Anyone need a quickie course on Buddhism?)

 

[Timebuilder]

Surplus-

I posted the info that you quoted to give some of these meanderings a foothold on fact. Putting the crusades and the inquisition at the feet of "Christianity" is a common mistake. People who call themselves "Christians", that is to say those who follow the Biblical teachings of Christ, were never a part of those activities. The birth of Catholicism wasn't so long ago that a good history text can't substantiate the info I gave. Most colleges that teach religion have texts available. It isn't a matter of doctrine to give a historical perspective.

Since I have never taught a religion course on the college level, I have to apologize if I have been unclear or incomplete. Here is the most basic guide: Christians believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, since the text gives account of Christ's authentication of scripture. It warns against false teaching (David Koresh, Beny Hinn, Mohammed, the Catechism, you name it). If it isn't a Bible teaching (no praying to statues, Christ's mother, dead apostles, no repetitive mantra-like phrases) it doesn't happen in a Bible church.

>>We walk on dangerous ground when we enter into debate over another man's choice of religion, particularly when those of a different regilion decide to tell him what he is or what he believes.

True. In America, we are free to choose or not choose. If a man chooses to call himself Christian, then that means he follows the teachings of Christ. To the best of my knowlege, there is only one source for that particular information. The truth of whether or not he is a Christian was decided before he was born. If he prays before a statue, the Bible, not any human, says he is not following Christ.

Since we are using up a lot of bandwidth as we deviate from our aviation topic, terrorism, I'll hope that this is a sufficient answer to you questions. Knowlege is power, and this is an area where most people don't have a lot of expertise, so I'm trying to provide a little illumination for the sake of this discussion. Just a few years ago, most of us had no clue about this "jihad", or that these extremists had identified America as the great satan. If these guys have made us their enemy, then it makes sense that we should have a grip on what makes them 'tick'.

Evangelists? If you mean those hucksters that you see on TV, I'm right there with you!!! Unfortunately, they fall into the false teacher category. Stay away from those fruitcakes. Yes, it is entirely appropriate that you say that.


>>Dwelling on their religious beliefs, what the book they read means or doesn't mean, how it compares with our religious myths and the books we read or don't read are irrelevant.

I disagree. We missed the whole September 11th fiasco because we didn't understand these guys. We didn't know that they believed that they themselves were expendable munitions in this "jihad" because of their religious teachings. For them this is MORE than just political, and we need to clearly understand that. The ONLY reason I have tried to explain the differences in beliefs is to explain the factual basics for those that think that clinic bombers, homosexual killers and the Spanish inquisition have anything at all to do with Christ or his teaching.

All of us need to be thankful, in whatever way we choose, that we have the freedoms we enjoy in America.

 

[Austpilot]

OK guys, looks like what I have posted here has got the juices flowing. I'm not religious, never have been, walked into a church probably four times in my life, as far as I'm concerned I take a realistic view these days and say that if you don't beleive in it, you have nothing to worry about - religion that is.

One thing for certain is, fanatacism of any type is scary - whether it be these muslim extremeists, religious fanatics, train spotters, plane spotters, AMWAY sales people, you name it.

From my observation however,there is a corner of the world where I feel it all starts, and I stand by the claim that the reason it starts in these countries is simply becuse the Americans have a bigger penis that the muslims - ie, your penis is bigger than my penis syndrome. The Bin ladens and Gadafi's,taliban and Al Qaeda really can't stand the fact that they are inferior to the rest of the world and are hiding behind their own pathetic religious beliefs as justification for their acts of terrorism. They are NOT a peacefull race,nor is it a peacefull religion. And before I get howled down in protestation by the do gooder types - that is my opinion,like it or lump it, I don't care, but don't sit on a forum like this and spout platitudes and excerpts from religious matter and defend or even attempt to justify the worst act of terrorism against ANYBODY.

And I also stand by my claim that if one of these loser,moron,half baked attempt of a human being absolute tosser with a tea towel on his head wanker comes and threatens the safety of my jet - well, the crash axe will be buried where the sun don't shine!! you don't piss off an Aussie!!!