Oh no another PFT thread

[bobbysamd]

Dues Paying 101

How DID you pay your dues without being homeless and hungry? Did you have a wife that financially supported you?

Perseverance got me my chance. No one supported me. I did it all myself. It is all about putting forth effort and being patient.

I was single when I changed careers to be a professional pilot. Probably older than you, at age 37. My first real flying job was as an instructor at Riddle. I moved from Oklahoma to Arizona and took a $7K pay cut for that job. If you don't think that pay cut was significant, I went from a salary that was about $23K. Before I got that job, I had applied to regionals and freight and tried to make contacts.

I wasn't broke when I started at Riddle, but I didn't have much money. Money from my day job and savings had gone into flying and training. I didn't receive students for about seven weeks after I arrived at ERAU, so I wasn't receiving income during that time. When I finally had students, I had trouble getting 172s, so my income was further eroded. I started at Riddle with about a thousand hours but comparatively little multi.

I was careful with the money I earned. Just like everyone, I was anxious to build multi. In the meantime, I figured out the ERAU scheduling and blue-slip system to get airplanes. I built hours, and several months later I hit 1500 and got my ATP. In those days, you could not take the ATP written until you met ATP times and had FSDO verify your logbook. My multi turn at ERAU came nine months after I was hired. About a year thereafter, I finally had regional interviews. I could have had one sooner, but I had signed a contract to be a Riddle stage check pilot (at a decent salary) and wanted to fulfill its terms.

I gather from your comments that you are working as a CFI. Bear in mind that along with wages come hours for your logbook. At times, it's hard to accumulate money, but flight time always accumulates. Eventually, you will build enough time for the regionals. You have an excellent educational background which will help you.

It's all about hanging in. If someone like me could do it, you certainly can do it. Just keep working hard and try to be patient. Don't succumb to the P-F-T lorelei.

 

[The_Russian]

Ty,

Explain to me the consequences of PFT.

 

[Lear70]

Pretty much the same story here... Graduated MTSU Dec '94 with all ratings through CFI and started instructing at a local flight school for $20 an hour, making about $300 a week, then busted my tail to get to know and helping out everyone on the ramp as I finished my CFII and MEI. Finally one of those operators hired me on as a King Air F/O making that same $300 a week ($75 per trip, average 4 trips per week).

Shortly after that I put out my resumes to all the regionals at the same time. Didn't know much about them but started getting all kinds of calls to PFT, "Just pay us $12,000 and we'll put you in the right seat of a JEATSTREAM! WOW!" Turned them all down, simply because I believe it is ethically and morally wrong for an employer to require someone to pay for something they're going to have to obtain in order to conduct business per FAR's. I consider it THEIR COST OF DOING BUSINESS; if someone wants to run an airline, they need to suck it up and pay for their business expenditures like any other industry and if people stopped PFT, they would have to train pilots themselves! Wow... concept.

Since all the regionals were at that time PFT, I stuck it out in the charter sector and within six months I upgraded to left seat in the King Air ($600 a week), six months later the right seat of a Lear (same $600 a week), a year after that left seat in a Lear 31 at Flexjet making $52,500, a year later the right seat of a 727 flying freight for $48,000, then a year and a half later in the left seat of a 727 making $84,000. Life was good until FedEx took over the USPS contract, now I'm back at the same regional that asked me to PFT but on my terms - I didn't pay for anything - they paid for hotel and per diem during training and I make a livable wage as a CRJ Captain at $50,000 (amusingly enough, less than I was making at Flexjet 5 years after the fact and about half of what I could make as a Lear Captain flying contract charter for $400 a day now, but I didn't have any Part 121 PIC Jet so I took this route - not much I haven't done in civilian aviation now).

The downside: amusingly enough, since I live in Nashville, several of my schoolmates PFT'd at what is now Pinnacle and were there for the 5 years I was moving around the Charter world. They are 5 years senior to me, holding lines with 14, 15, 16 days off and making about $20k a year more than I am although I'll be holding a line soon and that difference will narrow by about half. They also have about 2,000 to 3,000 more hours than me because of the differences in daily flight operations between regionals and charter, but almost all of that is right seat turboprop time while I've been flying Lears and Boeing jets up to 200,000 pounds Part 121, so it evens out.

Difference in pay over a career? They averaged 3 years in the right seat at around $15k a year less their first year $12k PFT = $33,000. I made $97,000 total those three years. Next two years they were Jetstream or Saab Captains making about $30,000 and added one or two turboprop ratings; I made $122,000 those two years and added two jet type ratings. Last 3 years, they were Saab Captains for a year, then Jet Captains for two years making $10,000 less than me the first year, then $20,000 more than me the last two years, so they were up $30,000 on me with more days off. Total difference so far? I'm up $126,000 with three jet types earned plus one given to me by the Federal government when I got laid off (gotta love WIA).

Now the downside - IF they get hired before I do the difference will be three years at their final paycheck average - let's say around $200,000 in today's dollars; they would have made about half a Million more than me over a career, but I chose not to live in poverty for the first 5 years of my professional career. Now reality: 7 of them got hired on at UAL or Delta but ALL those guys who made it to the majors were furloughed and STILL haven't found work - because they never got quaified to do anything else in the aviation world. That means they haven't flown for money in nearly 2 1/2 years with recalls still a year or two out - deduct half to 2/3 of that difference in career earnings, plus doing something that you hate to put food on the table - no flying for those years. I've had 7 job offers for Lear charter or 727 left seat Supplemental 121 again over the last 3 years which I turned down - they can't get them because they PFT'd and don't have the experience. Chew on that for a while...

Your situation: if you take your ERAU student loan, add it to Gulfstream or wherever's $25,000 loan, get hired at a regional with 1,000 or so Total Time, it will take you 2 to 3 years to upgrade, and that's IF they have any growth once you hold the time. You can't afford to pay your student loans on F/O pay at any regional that I know of until you hit about 3rd year pay, you're going to be sharing a crashpad with a bunch of guys anyway, so you're in the same financial boat you are now for the next few years... just something to think about.

How do you do it without PFT these days? I wasn't married. Daddy wasn't paying the bills. I shared a 3 bedroom apartment with a guy and two girls and we split the $200 a month rent for the first year and a half, then the next year I split a condo with a roommate for $350 a month. I had a paid-off '76 Corvette that cost me $4,000 and I fixed up, so nothing but gas and car insurance, and my student loan was deferred over those years. Yeah, it's not the best situation in the world, but it's livable, honorable, and I can honestly say I never PFT'd.

Question is, what's important to you?

 

[Ty Webb]

Lear 70-

Nice post. well-reasoned and well-written.

About that 727 time, what was it? Part 125? I'll bet AirTran and others would consider that the same as 121 PIC time. If you want, I'd be happy to look into it for you.

TW

 

[Lear70]

Actually, it was Supplemental 121 freight - Express One out of Dallas. Mostly scheduled USPS runs but we also did ad-hoc Eagle freight out of Austin down to Mexico and up to YIP... was a lot of fun for night freight, great people, good money; too bad it had to end! Upgraded in December of 2000 and went to Pinnacle (Express Airlines I) in May of '01... just to get laid off after 9/11 like a lot of other people. Luckily Pinnacle was growing and we were only out 60-90 days.

I've been bugging Jill at the AIR, Inc fairs for a couple years now, keep hoping I'll hear back from her!

 

[gottafly]

$300/week. That must have been the good old days. Try about $600 for an entire month when things are good, paying rent of $350 for a single room in a house. Try working as the suicide watch guard on the graveyard shift at the mental hospital to supplement the flight instructing income.

Try getting a job at other flight schools, yeah sure, when the 10 guys who are twiddling their thumbs here find their way into a regional or give up in despair, we'll be glad to have you.

Maybe things are very different now, I don't know. Anybody here at my age and stage having any luck getting dues paid the 'honorable' way?

 

[wheelsup]

gottafly:

I feel your pain - we're at the same point, roughly 600 hours or so. I work 12 hour days with the possibility of making maybe 3 hours billable at $12/hr. Pretty crappy.

I am also looking for another job to supplement the income. I've got

Rent: $330
Misc. Bills: $75
Insurance: $110
Gas: $100
Cell Phone: $50
Food: $150
Studen Loans: $100

And that's if nothing goes wrong. It blows. $915 - that's almost 90 hours of billable time per month after tax! And this is at a 61 flight school - it ain't gonna happen.

I got lucky, last month my dad helped me out ($250) and this month I got $300 from an insurance company after someone rear-ended me! I also get the occasional tip ($100 one day, lots of $10's and $20's) from discovery flights.

My advice is stay in aviation - I'm looking for a line job or something in the area. That way I can network while working!

~wheelsup

 

[English]

Be careful about the grass being greener elsewhere...I made more money as a CFI than during my first year at American Eagle.

 

[bobbysamd]

MAPD

Try getting a job at other flight schools, yeah sure, when the 10 guys who are twiddling their thumbs here find their way into a regional or give up in despair, we'll be glad to have you.

Why don't you apply to be an instructor at Mesa Airlines Pilot Development? You appear to meet the quals and Mesa has liked ERAU grads. Money will be better and you could interview with Mesa Airlines after a year.

Just a suggestion.

 

[wheelsup]

I know it wasn't meant for me but thanks for the tip! I'm from ERAU and have the mins as well...who knows!

~wheelsup

 

[gottafly]

Hey Wheelsup, which campus, what year?

 

[wheelsup]

dab and graduated '03. Moved to instruct at the one place I could find in NJ but came back in December of last year to instruct at a great school in orlando. I heard they're hiring maybe in the summer but I think I'm gonna stick it out where I am.

I heard prescott is hiring though -

~wheelsup

 

[bobbysamd]

MAPD Job

I know it wasn't meant for me but thanks for the tip! I'm from ERAU and have the mins as well...who knows!

Go for it! Good luck!

 

[gottafly]

dab and graduated '03. Moved to instruct at the one place I could find in NJ but came back in December of last year to instruct at a great school in orlando. I heard they're hiring maybe in the summer but I think I'm gonna stick it out where I am.

I heard prescott is hiring though -

~wheelsup

I'm Prescott 02. They are hiring, but they will only hire those who took their instructors course. DAB is advertizing, I have sent an application.

apply at Mesa Pilot Development

yes, thanks for the tip. I will apply there too.

 

[bobbysamd]

MAPD

apply at Mesa Pilot Development

Originally posted by gottafly
yes, thanks for the tip. I will apply there too.

Good luck!

I instructed at ERAU-Prescott from late '88-mid '91. Our campus has sent several people to Mesa; at least one of whom you probably know and at least two of whom who became Mesa Chief Pilots. Drop me a PM for details.