Oh no another PFT thread

[FlyForFood_NOT]

ok, you bought 1900 time to perfect your resume, fine. I'm sure that's for your dream airline job.

Tell me:
How would you feel if you just applied to lets say Comair and got accepted, but next day they told you, "oops, sorry, we just hired some pun%k who took your FO seat, he's just buying time from us."

 

[The_Russian]

I would look for a job somewhere else, and I wouldn't take it personally. It was obviously a business decision. I haven't taken anyones job because all of the GIA guys are backups. We are mostly only on reserve. The full time F/O's do most of the flying. We just back them up and build our time that way.

Ty did you work at BIA at FXE? You sound like it.

 

[Ty Webb]

Wake up. All airlines have reserves . . . and they hire and train pilots so they have reserves available.

But you guys, paying the company, for the privilege of sitting reserve . . . now, THAT'S some funny stuff.

I'm done wasting time in this thread . . . . Over and Out.

 

[Ace757]

Ok question.....Is Delta Connection Academy PFT? Or what about when FSI had the ASA Fast Track. Was that PFT? The differnce I see between DCA, and FSI, and Gulfstream is that your not buying time as a 121 FO. You are paying for traing so that you will do well in training at ASA and Comair. Is this the same thing as Gulfstream PFT?

 

[searching]

The Flight Safety ASA fast track program was definately PFT. It was infact pay for a job. No purchasing of flight time like the Gulfstream/Tab/Eagle Jet things, just an outright job for a ton of cash.

 

[bobbysamd]

Comair as P-F-T

Ok question.....Is Delta Connection Academy PFT?

No. Comair is not P-F-T. P-F-T is an employment issue. For something to be P-F-T, the applicant must remit payment to the employer as a condition of employment and, generally, the paid-for training must be esoteric to that company and not lead to a certificate, rating or other credential which is accepted and can be marketed anywhere. DCA, fka Comair Aviation Academy, is a flight school. One goes there initially to be trained, for FAA certificates which are accepted anywhere. Employment, if one gets it, comes later and one does not have to pay for it.

Or what about when FSI had the ASA Fast Track. Was that PFT? The differnce I see between DCA, and FSI, and Gulfstream is that your not buying time as a 121 FO. You are paying for traing so that you will do well in training at ASA and Comair. Is this the same thing as Gulfstream PFT?

ASA made conditional offers of employment to FSI grads. They had to put in their time as instructors before ASA picked them up. At Gulfstream, after one completes the P-F-T program, one flies for 250 hours as a paid FO, at $8 per hour. Since the FO is required under Part 121 and, presumably, its operating certificate, and, absent the P-F-T program, someone would ordinarily be hired into that job, Gulfstream FOs at least begin as P-F-Ters. Gulfstream people have written here that P-F-Ters can be considered for full-time after they complete their P-F-T stints. Apparently, Gulfstream does not hire street FOs.

 

[blade230]

Bobby you are incorrect about the ASA Flight Safety thing. There were two options a pilot could pay for, a flight instructor route, which almost nobody took who was enrolled in the bridge program, or the "bridge/no instructing route", where there was NO flight instructing. Call flight safety and ask.

I think you are reffering to ASA just hiring off the street Flight Safety flight instructors, but Flight Safety had a PFT/J program with ASA which put 300 hour guys at ASA. The program included SAAB Level D sim Time, and multi-engine time. Sorta like the Mesa PACE PFT/J program.

 

[searching]

Blade is correct,

Flight Safety did indeed have a PFJ/T program with ASA. It was also much like the mesa Pace PFJ/T deal.

 

[The_Russian]

Gulftream does not hire F/O's off the street, that is true. However, they do hire Captains off the street when they can't upgrade people fast enough. That mostly occured before 9/11.

I'll agree with blade and searching about the ASA PFJ. Those guys payed for a permanent hire job before walking in the door. At least that was when I was there in 2001. I heard of a deal with FSI that if you instructed for 1200 hours you had the option of getting the ASA program for free or a reduced price. That is what GIA does for their instuctors. I'm not sure, but I think that is what Bobby is talking about.

 

[bobbysamd]

FSI/ASI relationship

Bobby you are incorrect about the ASA Flight Safety thing. There were two options a pilot could pay for, a flight instructor route, which almost nobody took who was enrolled in the bridge program, or the "bridge/no instructing route", where there was NO flight instructing.

In 1992, one of my CFI students was interviewed for and was given the "conditional offer of employment" at FSI. I helped him prep for the instrument portion of the interview. He had to put in his time at FSI instructing before he could go to ASA. I believe he began in Scheduling. For sure, he was behind the desk in Dispatch, and then he started flying. He instructed for quite a while. During that time, his wife managed the bookstore.

FSI also had a deal that it would hire you and train you on its nickel for your CFI-I and MEI in return for an 800-hour instructing commitment. At that point, it sent you on to ASA.

More recently, I know that FSI had a pay-for-job tie-in with ASA. New grads who received the "conditional offer of employment" ponied up the big check and trained. One of them was pictured for a time on the FSI website, and someone here identified the guy. FSI has since changed its website.

 

[The_Russian]

um....

I think we should stop talking about this, rent a plane, and go flying together. Then it would be all nice and happy again. I like to do Cuban 8's. I also like snap rolls. I once made another CFI black out in a snap roll. It was funny. His head was flopping around. You would have fun too if you did snap rolls.

We are Comrades. Even though we hate each other. So whose gonna pay for the plane? Ahhh.....pro rata.

Anyone got 20 bucks????

 

[bobbysamd]

Yeah, let's go flying . .

We are Comrades.

(Hmmph). Typical Leninist/Marxist remark . . . .

Even though we hate each other. So whose gonna pay for the plane? Ahhh.....pro rata.

Anyone got 20 bucks????

While we go, I'll show you my Russian-made watch.

 

[DTWFO]

Isn't it amazing how much time people waste bitching about
P-F-T. You'd think it would get old after a while...

......carry on.

 

[Lear70]

A big part of the satisfaction of getting a decent job in aviation is all the hard work it took to get there...

There's something to say for working your way up, building solid experience, making friends who turn into great future contacts......

Well said. Someone out there has a signature that says something about it being about the journey, not necessarily the destination, and that about sums it up.

I enjoy flying with our Gulfstream guys, some of us hang out together after work, and I absolutely detest PFT, doesn't mean we can't get along.

Everyone makes their own choices, debating it here does absolutely no good.

By the way, I got $20 bucks and haven't been aerobatic flying in a while, so just say when and where!

 

[secks]

Later, at a different company, when I was flying corporate jets, not only did we pitch all GIA resumes, but when we had guys come in from the street and offer to fly SIC in our jets "to get experience" the CP used to immediately escort them to the door, saying "Sorry, but we only hire professionals here, and if you are willing to fly for free, you're not a professional". We all got a kick out of that.

Yeah, I'll bet you kids got a kick out of that. Very professional. This just goes to show that it doesn't take much to amuse some people.

Tell me: Exactly how does flying for free make someone unprofessional? Because that behavior deprives another pilot
of a job? Well, that's exactly what happens when applicants compete for a job. One person wins, the others lose. There's nothing wrong with someone pricing himself competitively in order to attract job offers. You might call it "whoring" yourself out, but if that's the case, then doctors in residency are whores, consultants are whores, as is just about every intern in any industry out there (airlines, music, etc.).

If you were the CP, and you have two candidates, one who paid his dues like you did, and one who paid a bunch of money to get out of paying his dues, well, which one are you going to hire?

Right, and every pilot out there should pay his dues just like you did. Otherwise, he's not a professional. Give it a rest. Are you so naive as to expect every budding pilot out there to eat $hit just because you did? This sort of "logic" leads me to believe that you resent pilots who've had it easier than you.

Whatever happened to hiring the applicant who strikes a good balance between experience and wage? You can't immediately deny a PFT/PFJer on the basis of experience. They may pay for the job, but they receive multi/jet flying experience earlier in their career than most. If you deny them a job, it's for personal reasons. But that's professional, right?

You don't seem to be able to grasp the fundamental point here:

The FAA requires an FO in a B1900. The company would have to hire and train pilots anyway. If you idiots would simply put your checkbooks away, they would be hiring pilots to be FO's. You hurt your fellow pilots by paying the company instead of being a paid professional.

Well, guess who is hurt by "paying dues"? The person paying the dues. You expect newbie pilots to place themselves on the sacrificial altar in order for another pilot to earn a good wage. Isn't a little selfish to expect strangers to delay gratification just so you can get a job?

It strikes me that this sort of hiring discrimination is borderline illegal. You are essentially refusing employment to otherwise qualified (minimums according to the regs) on the basis of highly subjective personal beliefs: i.e. "They're whores because they are willing to work for so little". It's a fine line you're walking.