Oddball FAR Question

[jergar999]

Scenario: (Under Part 135)

Aircraft is at an airport that is Class G, but has an ASOS and is served by a GPS approach (849' & 1 mile mins). Radar contact cannot be established within 3000' AGL due to surrounding terrain. Weather is 1500 overcast and 4 miles in light snow, winds 15 knots. Pilot calls FSS on cell phone, obtains void time, and departs within that void time. I have heard two thoughts on this:

1. No problem, well above departure mins, had clearance.

2. Weather at an uncontrolled (Class G) airport need to be at least 2000' and 2 miles to legally depart.

Any input?

 

[midlifeflyer]

2. Weather at an uncontrolled (Class G) airport need to be at least 2000' and 2 miles to legally depart.

That answer is more oddball than the question. Where did =that= ever come from.

 

[pilotyip]

old 135

There used to be an old 135 VFR rule, in fact may still exist, of a sliding VFR in uncontrolled airspace, it went something like 1,200/2; 1,000'/3; 800'/4; and you could depart VFR to pick up a clearnace. I have not heard of this for over 12 years.

 

[cvsfly]

Other than the takoff minimums - Standard according to 135.225 or your Ops Spec under Part C the only reference I can think of to departing a class G airport in particular is 135.205 which concerns a VFR departure (1000' & 2 miles). You said you where IFR. Had weather reporting -135.213, had dept. mins (as above), and complied with 135.215 - and Ops Spec A014 - right? Were you equipped and approved for GPS approach? The language isn't exact as to requiring the capability to perform that GPS approach, but it does seam that is the intent with the Ops Spec and 135.215. Any thoughts?

 

[Singlecoil]

Check your ops specs. In the B section of approved routes and areas of operation, any airports in class G airspace that are approved should be specifically listed. If it is listed, and you have a clearance and takeoff mins, away you go.
You can fly VFR with 1000 and 1 or 500 and 2, but those minimums don't apply in this case. Again check what your approved takeoff mins are in your ops specs. They are probably 1600 RVR or 1/4 mile in this case, or if you just have standard mins, one mile.
Having radar coverage is nice, but not required.

 

[TXCAP4228]

This is purely from a FAR perspective.

The altitude at which you will be in radar contact has absolutely no bearing on whether the airspace is controlled. When you receive your clearance by phone you will be told to enter controlled airspace on a heading of xyz degrees - when you get to controlled airspace you comply with your clearence.

While in class G, you have to be 1 mile and clear of clouds.... since its VFR. I think?

 

[172driver]

While in class G, you have to be 1 mile and clear of clouds.... since its VFR. I think?

Not the case. As long as you comply with IFR rules, you may fly in Class G in total IMC. Again...purely from a FAR perspective. I'm sure ops specs have something to say about this too.

 

[cvsfly]

Not the case. As long as you comply with IFR rules, you may fly in Class G in total IMC. Again...purely from a FAR perspective. I'm sure ops specs have something to say about this too.

jergarr999, you are getting conflicting opinions here from some who obviously aren't familar with 135. This is a 135 - IFR question, right?. If it is strictly a 135 reg question, there is no IFR in Class G airspace. 135.215. Your Ops Specs usually give a conditional waiver around this . A014 (at least for small basic operators- my experience) Your Ops Specs are the final word. 80% are boiler plate stuff that just about any 135 operator gets automatically. The rest are determined on an individual basis as to what additional requirements or approvals are granted - T/O mins, autorized airports for wx reporting, etc.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

VFR rules don't apply in this case

If you have an IFR clearance and are operating under part 135 or 121, I would be more concerned about T/O mins., your ops specs., and a T/O alternate (within 1 hour distance @ normal single engine cruise).

In most instances the weather mins. are lower for T/O than for landing. So if you can get out, you may not be able to get back in if there is an emergency on T/O. Hence, the above requirement.

 

[Iflewjetz]

Here is a good website that has links to the FAR's and AIM.
www.uptprep.com/PubsRegs

 

[100LL... Again!]

Quite a few operators are not authorized to use the takeoff alternate rule, basically negatiing any takeoffbelow 1/2 mile if an ILS is available, or 1 mile elsewhere.

135 class G ops are different than 121.

 

[Cargoboy]

Wow a lot of thoughts here on this one. I think the conflict is because every 135 operator in the op specs has it differently stated what kind operations it can do.
For us it is basically stated that you need to be able to t.o. with whatever it takes to get back in. Visiblity is the only controlling factor on what you need to shoot an approach.
So if it served with only a GPS app. (non-precision) you most likely will need 1 mile. If it serves and ILS app. you can take off with 1/2 mile. Ops specs depending on who you fly for 135, have different variations of this due to how they want there pilots to fly. It is basically set up for people flying twins....i.e. lose and engine on t.o. and can you get back in.
the only places where I know you can take off with less than 1/2 mile would be at large airports that serve quite a system of runway lights and RVR.
Since most 135 flyers are not planning on landing at the airport they depart vis. is the only thing you need to depart.
Your dest. is going to need the ol 123 rule and let's not even get into right now what you need to be able to use an alt on a flight plan for 135 flying.
Remember all of this is hypotheitcal once you get to your dest. you use whatever the app plate says you can use. And remember the only deciding factor as to whether you can shoot an approach is what??????.....that's right VISIBILITY!
Hope this helps out. If need be I can snap out my ops manual and scan what it says.

 

[msw]

So much easier for us Part 91 guys: Get your clearance and void time on the phone, take off at this Class G airport zero-zero in the soup if you want, and that's it. Just make sure you assure yourself of terrain and obstacle clearance..... cuz no one else is gonna do it for you!