Obstruction Clearance

[avbug]

Apparently I can't use the quote features, or any of the other toolbar items...I don't know why. However...Quote:""Actually AB, it does mean I have to reach 2500' before I have my ATC clearane, just like a clearanc limit. Since ATC cannot give you a "pop up" clearance at an altitude below their MVA for that area. ''' End QuoteThis is incorrect. ATC can give you the clearance on the ground, below the MVA, below radar coverage, and give you a clearance void time.The clearance as you've provided it is a clearance to the destination, direct. That's why you said, cleared direct destination. That you were told to maintain own terrain until 2,500 doesn't negate the fact that you've been cleared. If you weren't cleared, you would have been told to expect a clearance upon reaching 2,500. Instead, the clearance you provided, clearly stated that the flight has been cleared...you've already received the clearance. There's nothing in the wording you provided that would indicate or mean anything else.I've picked up clearances many, many times, out of radar coverage. I'll get a clearance void time, and then check in with ATC in the air. Until I get radar vectors in flight, or am radar identified on part of my cleared routing, I'm responsible for my own terrain separation.The truth is, no matter who identifies what, you're always ultimately responsible. At the end of the day when you're oozing off a rock and slowly freezing to a little red icicle, it's the controller who goes home to feed the dog, and you that becomes dog food. You're always ultimately responsible for your own terrain clearance, no matter what's handed you by ATC.

 

[avbug]

Anybody know why this new format doesn't recognize the tool bar, or paragraphs?

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Sorry, I go with avbug on this one. I routinely operate part 121 out of an non-towered airport (but controlled airspace) and receive a similar clearance below MVA. We are IFR once we receive such a clearance, but the controller is not guaranteeing obstruction clearance. He is guaranteeing seperation from IFR traffic. The whole class G issue is separate. Typically, an IFR clearance out of an "uncontrolled" airport will sound more like "upon entering controlled airspace, cleared to XYZ via as filed etc etc" The purpose of an IFR clearance is to provide separation from other IFR traffic. Terrain clearance is provided by published procedures and routes, or, in radar contact, minimum vectoring altitudes. If you received your clearance on the ground, the phrase "maintain your own terrain and obstruction clearance" is unnecessary since it is presumed you are complying with IFR departure procedures immediately upon liftoff. If you pick up the IFR aloft, but below MVA, then you are VFR when you call... hence you cannot be presumed to be complying with published IFR procedures. You could be anywhere since you are just using visual seperation from terrain. Hence the controller must remind you that your "pop-up" IFR clearance is not providing terrain seperation. You must provide your own, either by maintaining visual from the terrain or compying with a published procedure (or, in many instances, simplying climbing 200'/nm as somebody mentioned). However, you are IFR as soon as you hear "cleared via....". You can enter the clouds if you can legally and safely maintain terrain and obstruction clearance.

You guys are absolutely right.

http://www.faa.gov/atpubs/

Pub 7110.65

Although nothing in the "clearance" section says you have you IFR clearance before reaching the MVA, MEA, or MIA, I think you can reasonably imply that you do.

Guess my good buddy at RDR has some "splaining" to do!

4-2-8. IFR-VFR AND VFR-IFR FLIGHTS​

a. Clear an aircraft planning IFR operations for the initial part of flight and VFR for the latter part to the fix at which the IFR part ends.
b. Treat an aircraft planning VFR for the initial part of flight and IFR for the latter part as a VFR departure. Issue a clearance to this aircraft when it requests IFR clearance approaching the fix where it proposes to start IFR operations. The phraseology CLEARED TO (destination) AIRPORT AS FILED may be used with abbreviated departure clearance procedures.
[SIZE=-2]REFERENCE-
FAAO 7110.65, Abbreviated Departure Clearance, Para 4-3-3.​

c. When an aircraft changes from VFR to IFR, the controller shall assign a beacon code to Mode-C equipped aircraft that will allow MSAW alarms.
d. When a VFR aircraft, operating below the minimum altitude for IFR operations, requests an IFR clearance and you are aware that the pilot is unable to climb in VFR conditions to the minimum IFR altitude:​

1. Before issuing a clearance, ask if the pilot is able to maintain terrain and obstruction clearance during a climb to the minimum IFR altitude.
NOTE-
Pilots of pop-up aircraft are responsible for terrain and obstacle clearance until reaching minimum instrument altitude (MIA) or minimum en route altitude (MEA). Pilot compliance with an approved FAA procedure or an ATC instruction transfers that responsibility to the FAA; therefore, do not assign (or imply) specific course guidance that will (or could) be in effect below the MIA or MEA.
EXAMPLE-
"November Eight Seven Six, are you able to provide your own terrain and obstruction clearance between your present altitude and six thousand feet?"
2. If the pilot is able to maintain terrain and obstruction separation, issue the appropriate clearance as prescribed in para 4-2-1, Clearance Items, and para 4-5-6, Minimum En Route Altitudes.​

3. If unable to maintain terrain and obstruction separation, instruct the pilot to maintain VFR and to state intentions.
​

​

[/SIZE]