NWA's 70 seat deal details

[fieldinsight]

You also gotta remember that NWA owns controlling interest in Pinnacle and Mesaba(Pohlad included).

You gotta pay more attention. As Tank Commander posted, NWA spun 9E off a few years back in order to prop up the pensions. If NWA still owns any of 9E, it's less than 5%, because they haven't disclosed ownership to the SEC. NWA may have owned 28% or so of XJ, but you can bet they'll lose a lot of it in the bankruptcy process. Since MAIR is providing DIP financing (with money earned by XJ) odds are that MAIR will have much more control of XJ if (and its a big if) they emerge.

 

[DoinTime]

Quote:
The carriers with the highest unit costs were network airlines Northwest and US Airways (Table 10) and regional carrier Pinnacle (Table 12). The carriers with the lowest unit costs were low-cost carriers JetBlue, Southwest and AirTran Airways (Table 11).

Table 12: Airline Domestic Unit Costs (Cents per Mile)

Regionals
Ranked by 3rd Quarter 2005 Domestic Unit Costs
(Domestic Operating Expenses per Available Seat Mile in cents)

3Q 2005 RankRegional Carriers 3rd Quarter 2005
1 Pinnacle 16.2
2 Comair 14.7
3 American Eagle 14.6
4 SkyWest 13.7
5 Atlantic Southeast 13.3
6 ExpressJet 11.7
7 Mesa 10.7

Source: Bureau of Transportation Statistics; Form 41; Schedule P1.2. T100; T2 Data.

This data is not a fair comparison of actual costs. Keep in mind that this is a cost per available seat mile and not cost per block hour. Pinnacle fleet is comprised mostly of 44 seat CRJs while airlines like Mesa have many CRJ-900 and -700. Other factors that drastically affect CASM are daily utilization and average stage length. These two factors are solely dependent upon the regional airlines service partner. Northwest does not utilize aircraft very well.

Another factor that may be in play for this data is the multitude of charges PNCL took in Q3 that were related to the NW bankruptcy.

 

[flyin backwards]

Since MAIR is providing DIP financing (with money earned by XJ) odds are that MAIR will have much more control of XJ if (and its a big if) they emerge.

MAIR hasn't provided ANY DIP finanacing for Mesaba. They have only offered. Mesaba as to date, has not needed DIP because there financial position is not yet required it.

As far as MAIR having more control of Mesaba, how much more can they control. The call all the the shots right now and always have.(well, at least as much as big brother allows)

 

[flyin backwards]

I posted this about a month ago showing how PNCL is the most expensive regional listed at the DOT web site with cost per availible seat mile. .

I think you told me about it in the crew room. Were you in room 421 at the WW.

 

[fieldinsight]

MAIR hasn't provided ANY DIP finanacing for Mesaba. They have only offered. Mesaba as to date, has not needed DIP because there financial position is not yet required it.

Sorry, you are correct. Just another reason why this bankruptcy is phony.

 

[profit]

PCL 128, I think some of us owe you a beer. So many true statements and wisdom! Imagine this coming from a Mesaba pilot (ME).

Pilot salaries per ASM and per block hour are LOWER at PCL than at MES. Anyone who doesn't believe it can look for DOT Form 41 data and figure it out for yourself.

Further, NWA only likes puppet management. They learned their lesson with Bryan Bedford. They only want (and currently have) airlink managers who used to work for them (and still do!)

It is HIGHLY unlikely they will ever have a vendor who they actually have to NEGOTIATE with.

Anyone who argues this point either hasn't been around, or is stupid.

 

[flyin backwards]

Pilot salaries per ASM and per block hour are LOWER at PCL than at MES.

I thought 9E guys made so much more than us. Isn't that why they always say we folded on our last contract. Huh, maybe our w2's are better than theirs.(at least till we take it in the shorts in a couple weeks)

 

[PCL_128]

I thought 9E guys made so much more than us. Isn't that why they always say we folded on our last contract. Huh, maybe our w2's are better than theirs.(at least till we take it in the shorts in a couple weeks)

Yes, this is really helpful. We're all involved in a huge Red Tail cluster-f$%*, and you want to argue about who gets the bigger W2. Focus, people.

 

[SkywayFO]

I second the idea of keeping an eye on Shuttublic Family. My guess is all the 70 seat flying goes here. For better or worse we have the 170 and it is a not in the same leage as the 700. Not that it matters from the pointy end of the thing too much, but from passenger comfort and capibility, it will be the ship they want. Just my 2 cents.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Once again nothing has been set in stone, these are only talks during negotiations; NewCo is still on the table. The pilots counter to NewCo was to let NWA replace certain aircraft with 70 seaters to be operated at another carrier any more jets would be a 1 to 1 exchange. It's also important to note in the pilot deal NWA is not allowed to own or lease the jets out. So whomever the partner is, must already have the jets available or on order, and be the lowest bidder. NWA rejected this offer, and unless the pilots give into more demands, think NewCo.

 

[flyin backwards]

Yes, this is really helpful. We're all involved in a huge Red Tail cluster-f$%*, and you want to argue about who gets the bigger W2. Focus, people.

Thats great and all, but when consessions are forced down are throat i'm sure you'll be the first one on here saying how we folded and should have held the line. I can't wait to see what happens over there when they really start to hammer your contract.

 

[pilotpayne]

I second the idea of keeping an eye on Shuttublic Family. My guess is all the 70 seat flying goes here. For better or worse we have the 170 and it is a not in the same leage as the 700. Not that it matters from the pointy end of the thing too much, but from passenger comfort and capibility, it will be the ship they want. Just my 2 cents.

You boys never quit do you.
These are guys jobs we are talking about here.
How much more flying would you like?
And on a side note would you quit with this 170 stuff, you would think the way you guys talk god himself made that plane.

 

[HawkI]

I think operating costs are taking to many headlines, all the rfp's submitted are probably very similiar (my opinion only), but investers and bean counters also look at asset vs liability. Who owns all the Airlink aircraft? I think it would be easier for NW to obtain financing if they didn't have any debt obligation for all these A/C, and instead contracted out all the flying (as well as the liability for the aircraft). I think this means goodbye old companies, hello NewCo.....whichev er one that might be.

Of course I'm probably wrong.

 

[yasir1212]

Yeah wait and see they will replace the DC-9's with 70 seaters...

Replace the DC-9??? You've got to be kidding!! When, and if, they get the 70-seaters, they will send a DC-9 to pick up the crew from the desert when they retire their 70-seaters.
:beer:

 

[GFunk20]

SkywayFO is right.

I wouldn't keep CHQ/Shuttle/Republic out. The E-170 is what people want. Who wants to wait on a cold jetway for carry-on bags to get unloaded from a CRJ700?

Republic has the cost structure they want plus a MUCH better product to offer.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

SkywayFO is right.

I wouldn't keep CHQ/Shuttle/Republic out. The E-170 is what people want. Who wants to wait on a cold jetway for carry-on bags to get unloaded from a CRJ700?

Republic has the cost structure they want plus a MUCH better product to offer.

That's assuming an airline would offer service, what were you thinking?

 

[fieldinsight]

Is the SF3 still on the Shuttle ticket? I expect the Saab flying to be put out to bid after the CRJ is settled. XJ, Colgan and Shuttle could bid the flying, in theory...

 

[OMG7778]

The Key thing

You are forgetting the one key thing that others have brought up. NWA does not play well with others, they do not care about the "product" they care about control. I could be totally wrong here but I am willing to bet that your ChaShuttle Management types are not about to hand over the keys to the company store just to secure another couple airplanes. The other thing you have to consider is cost, the CRJ is all one type rating for the 700 and the 200, meaning one pilot group one training program, not a split list, lower costs (especially since Mainline ends up paying the training bill cost plus business model at its' finest.) The 170 is a good thought and all but cost and control wise I just dont think it is going to happen. In a perfect world the airplanes would stay with NWA mainline as those guys are going to get railroaded and they deserve to keep the flying as it is their flying to begin with. If anyone gets these I bet they go to Mesaba as they need them, in addition with attrition being what it is at Pinnacle we are not really in a position to handle any expansion. We are hiring 32 (or trying to hire that many anyway, number does not include pilots who drop out of ground school) a month and losing 30 a month 9 captains and about 20 first officers. Know-nothing Blvd Down there in Memphis is stretched about to the mental limit (and cannot seem to put together why so many are leaving, bad contract, poor work rules, bad ground support at 3 of the hubs), not that there was a lot to work with anyway.

Be safe out there

It is US against the world
OMG

 

[turbinej]

We have fo's and Captains leaving to get out of the industry. Tried of the schedules. 5 years senority only getting 12-13 days off. Non commutible lines. I see a lot going over to Air Willly, NetJets, Quiting to take non aviation job.

Captains going to CAL, JB, FedEx, or just quiting to get out of industry. One guy went t take a marketing job 9-5 make the same he was here and home every night.

When PCL does it cost they don't use CASM. They use block hour. I had this discussion with union reps. Because of contract negotiations they know a lot of financial data. I had the same question that our CASM is high and Mesa is less than ours. They told me that the CASM may be higher, but our cost per block hour is lower.

 

[Lear70]

We have fo's and Captains leaving to get out of the industry. Tried of the schedules. 5 years senority only getting 12-13 days off. Non commutible lines. I see a lot going over to Air Willly, NetJets, Quiting to take non aviation job.

Captains going to CAL, JB, FedEx, or just quiting to get out of industry. One guy went t take a marketing job 9-5 make the same he was here and home every night.

Part of our problem with this is that management doesn't care.

That's right, they don't CARE that new-hires are quitting as soon as another regional will take them. Why?

BECAUSE OUR CURRENT CONTRACT WITH NORTHWEST GUARANTEES THEIR PROFIT MARGIN !!

Things MIGHT, and I say MIGHT change with the new contract we get (assuming we keep a good chunk of our aircraft), especially if the guaranteed profit margin disappears and our managers actually have to WORK to stay profitable. They won't like training costs increased 200% over projected IF they have to pay for it themselves.

If they don't, our QOL will never increase - there will be no NEED to concentrate on it and it will drive off a high number of mid-level seniority guys and gals which means more junior people driving the bus = lower costs. Screwy way of thinking about it, but that's the way management sees it.

Like I tell everyone else. Have a better offer? Take it and RUN!

 

[kmox29]

...it will drive off a high number of mid-level seniority guys and gals which means more junior people driving the bus = lower costs. Screwy way of thinking about it, but that's the way management sees it.

Absolutely correct! As a matter of fact, yesterday, I received a letter from our CEO explaining the need for the 1113c motion. In the letter one of his reasons for slashing costs was:

"Moreover, the identified wage cut is needed to address the fact that, although Mesaba's current wage scales are in the range of those of other regional carriers, Mesaba's employees are, on average, at higher longevity step levels of compensation."

Soooooooo....thank your for your dedication and loyalty to Mesaba, now bend over.

 

[last call]

Pinnacle and Mesaba are just crew providers. NWA holds the leases to those CRJ's. Since all the bankruptcy judges seem to care about anymore is Airline upper managemant then you can bet that it won't be long till they get out of them.
There is a huge clearance sale going on for FLYI CRJ's. So if a carrier like AWAC or Mesa can come up with a bid using those monthly leases then good or bad the judge will go with lower cost and not what is right.

 

[tbennett]

Give this man a cigar!!! Spot on. The ultimate result of this fiasco is completely unrelated to what price anyone bid, or what CBA any pilot group has. NWA management has already decided where these planes are going if the NWA pilot group gives them up (either Pinnacle or Mesaba, maybe both), and what everyone bid for the flying is completely irrelevant. All this talk of RFPs, bids, regional CBAs, etc... is nothing but posturing to convince each pilot group to take concessions for growth. NWA is about as likely to award any flying to Mesa as I am to send a check to Dan Ford and the rest of his cronies at the RJDC. Ain't. Gonna. Happen.

Yep,

You're wrong if you don't think it is likely or even possible. I used to work for ACA/Independence.

I saw UAL replace our 87 RJ's and 20 some J41s in 3 months time. They got 6 carriers and Delta ground services to replace the flying and the gate ops at 20 some airports. They also convinced the IAD apt authority to build a whole new terminal at IAD for them.

None of us at ACA thought they could do it. Then they did the same thing all over again with AWAC.

And guess who replaced us Mesa, Trans States, and Republic. Whats worse, UAL used to do buisneess with both Hulas and Orenstien and dropped them both like 5 years ago or so.

I will admit that in the case of ACA, AWAC and UAL, it was MGMT vs. MGMT. Not NWA MGMT vs. Mesaba and NWA pilots....big difference I suppose.

I live in MSP and work for Champion and I hope NWA ALPA Pilots gets every single new plane NWA management is gonna put into service.

 

[DoinTime]

So if a carrier like AWAC or Mesa can come up with a bid using those monthly leases then good or bad the judge will go with lower cost and not what is right.

Bankruptcy judges do not make decisions like these. NWA management still has exclusivity on operational control of thier company. NW will pick who they want to fly their planes. Not the bankruptcy judge.

 

[Yudso]

I think the difference between ACA/AWAC and XJ/PNCL is that Airlink management is willing to do whatever it takes to make ma northwest happy. I believe that ACA/AWAC refused to play that game with United.

 

[wmudriver]

SkywayFO is right.

I wouldn't keep CHQ/Shuttle/Republic out. The E-170 is what people want. Who wants to wait on a cold jetway for carry-on bags to get unloaded from a CRJ700?

Republic has the cost structure they want plus a MUCH better product to offer.

No no...tell us how you really feel.

As far as Republic goes...won't happen for one reason....Bryan Bedford. NWA saw that he was getting out of line here at XJ, so they ran his a$$ out of town.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

It's likely NWA will start a new regional allowing NWA pilots the ability to bid into the positions on the new 70 seaters. The RFP's most likely are to whipsaw our NWA pilot rates, don't expect anybody to get this flying other than furloughed NWA pilots and newhires. The roles that XJ/9E will have at NWA is unclear at this point.

 

[last call]

It's likely NWA will start a new regional allowing NWA pilots the ability to bid into the positions on the new 70 seaters. The RFP's most likely are to whipsaw our NWA pilot rates, don't expect anybody to get this flying other than furloughed NWA pilots and newhires. The roles that XJ/9E will have at NWA is unclear at this point.

How can you say that. Don't pretend management, for one second cares about anything but the bottom line and making the shareholders happy

 

[last call]

I still say that the flying is going to go to whoever is the cheapest.
How can NWA start thier own regional? They would have to get the aquisition of new airplanes approved. Do you think all thier creditor would be happy about money being spent when they aren't getting paid?

 

[Tank Commander]

YPF, I don't know if you've noticed, but the trend is to get rid of mainline jobs, not create more.