NWA's 70 seat deal details

[nwaredtail]

More details for all the drooling regional folks out there:

The NWA MEC sent out an email basically saying the in order to keep the mainline flying, we have to give up 70 seaters. Big surprise huh. Promises of mainline flying bigger RJ's (90 seaters) basically just sugar to make the medicine go down.

36- 70 seat RJ's to replace AVRO's, bidders in contention, PNCL (not likely from NWA VP), Mesaba ( bid was way high unless they get the paycuts) and Mesa. Bid was supposidely 14% lower than the lowest. Obvious here say, just repeating what I was told.

Up to 50 more, with ratios for mainline and replacement of 50 seaters.

some sort of deal were furloughed mainline guys have to get the right to fly CAptain of any plane bought initially by NWA, yadda yadda yadda. sound familiar, US AIR, Midatlantic?

 

[i fly boxes]

Look I don't know how close you and the VP are, but no offense, When I read your last two posts, it just sounds like the VP is trying to scare everyone so northwest gets there way. First he would say you guys have to give up 70's, so you your union would get scared, and then he would tell Pinnacle not likely so they would sign a crap contract, then he would tell mesaba that they are way high so they would take pay cuts, and then he would tell everyone that mesa was 14% lower than everyone so that everyone would get scared and take pay cuts.

Thats what managers do, they will lie to anyone. Now I will admit that you have more experience than me in this industry, but I would not trust anyone in that management and what they say.

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Look I don't know how close you and the VP are, but no offense, When I read your last two posts, it just sounds like the VP is trying to scare everyone so northwest gets there way. First he would say you guys have to give up 70's, so you your union would get scared, and then he would tell Pinnacle not likely so they would sign a crap contract, then he would tell mesaba that they are way high so they would take pay cuts, and then he would tell everyone that mesa was 14% lower than everyone so that everyone would get scared and take pay cuts.

Thats what managers do, they will lie to anyone. Now I will admit that you have more experience than me in this industry, but I would not trust anyone in that management and what they say.

That's probably about the sharpest observation I've seen in a long time.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Yeah wait and see they will replace the DC-9's with 70 seaters, who is our MEC kidding? This info is correct but it didn't come from a VP.

 

[PCL_128]

Look I don't know how close you and the VP are, but no offense, When I read your last two posts, it just sounds like the VP is trying to scare everyone so northwest gets there way. First he would say you guys have to give up 70's, so you your union would get scared, and then he would tell Pinnacle not likely so they would sign a crap contract, then he would tell mesaba that they are way high so they would take pay cuts, and then he would tell everyone that mesa was 14% lower than everyone so that everyone would get scared and take pay cuts.

Thats what managers do, they will lie to anyone. Now I will admit that you have more experience than me in this industry, but I would not trust anyone in that management and what they say.

Give this man a cigar!!! Spot on. The ultimate result of this fiasco is completely unrelated to what price anyone bid, or what CBA any pilot group has. NWA management has already decided where these planes are going if the NWA pilot group gives them up (either Pinnacle or Mesaba, maybe both), and what everyone bid for the flying is completely irrelevant. All this talk of RFPs, bids, regional CBAs, etc... is nothing but posturing to convince each pilot group to take concessions for growth. NWA is about as likely to award any flying to Mesa as I am to send a check to Dan Ford and the rest of his cronies at the RJDC. Ain't. Gonna. Happen.

 

[pilot772]

Give this man a cigar!!! Spot on. The ultimate result of this fiasco is completely unrelated to what price anyone bid, or what CBA any pilot group has. NWA management has already decided where these planes are going if the NWA pilot group gives them up (either Pinnacle or Mesaba, maybe both), and what everyone bid for the flying is completely irrelevant. All this talk of RFPs, bids, regional CBAs, etc... is nothing but posturing to convince each pilot group to take concessions for growth. NWA is about as likely to award any flying to Mesa as I am to send a check to Dan Ford and the rest of his cronies at the RJDC. Ain't. Gonna. Happen.

Thats what Air Whisky was saying about a year ago

 

[Bdfg1]

NWA is about as likely to award any flying to Mesa as I am to send a check to Dan Ford and the rest of his cronies at the RJDC. Ain't. Gonna. Happen.

Wouldn't put it passed you. Didn't seem to hesitate to send those checks to Gulfstream.

 

[Tank Commander]

Why, when PCL128 makes a good point, does it alway have to go back to that?

 

[JumpCaptain]

...NWA is about as likely to award any flying to Mesa as I am to send a check to Dan Ford and the rest of his cronies at the RJDC. Ain't. Gonna. Happen.

Why not? Mesa sucks up flying all over this industry because of their low operating cost. Why wouldn't they win the bid for red tail flying? I'm sure they'll undercut Mesaba and Pinnacle.

 

[nwaredtail]

Info did not come from a management type. It came from a union type getting me ready for the bad news. Who gets to fly the 70 seaters, who knows and I really don't care...............

 

[ILLINI]

Give this man a cigar!!! Spot on. The ultimate result of this fiasco is completely unrelated to what price anyone bid, or what CBA any pilot group has. NWA management has already decided where these planes are going if the NWA pilot group gives them up (either Pinnacle or Mesaba, maybe both), and what everyone bid for the flying is completely irrelevant. All this talk of RFPs, bids, regional CBAs, etc... is nothing but posturing to convince each pilot group to take concessions for growth. NWA is about as likely to award any flying to Mesa as I am to send a check to Dan Ford and the rest of his cronies at the RJDC. Ain't. Gonna. Happen.

I wouldn't be so confident that this is all a show to get Mesaba and Pinnacle to accept concessions. Like pilot 772 said, United did the exact same thing to Air Wisconsin very recently and all of that flying was given to Skywest, Mesa, and even G0Jet. Mangagement is capable of anything when they are fighting bankruptcy and counting every tenth of a penny.

 

[81Horse]

Mangagement is capable of anything when they are fighting bankruptcy and counting every tenth of a penny.

Fighting bankruptcy?? They're embracing it.

 

[Tank Commander]

Mesa sucks up flying all over this industry because of their low operating cost. Why wouldn't they win the bid for red tail flying? I'm sure they'll undercut Mesaba and Pinnacle.

It's been said before and I'll say it again. 9E and XJ could have seeked other flying outside of NWA along time ago, but they did not. If they had NWA would have taken away their flying. Why? Its the NWA way. Monopolize everything. Your hubs, your routes, and most of all your labor and regional carrier groups. NWA loves to whipsaw. If they let in a new regional carrier that flies for NWA's competition, It would allow that new carrier to whipsaw NWA against its competition. NWA would not have any of that. The RFP was a tool to get 9e and xj to lower operating cost. Just like the threat of new co was a threat to the NWA mec to release 70 seat flying.

 

[N590MA]

You also gotta remember that NWA owns controlling interest in Pinnacle and Mesaba(Pohlad included). So any flying these 2 get from nwa, they get to double dip into. You think Mesa, Ho jets or any others would let stealin or the rest of the nwa boys do that? Also, like the previous post says, there is the control issue of letting another regional into the family.

 

[Workin'Stiff]

It's been said before and I'll say it again. 9E and XJ could have seeked other flying outside of NWA along time ago, but they did not. If they had NWA would have taken away their flying. Why? Its the NWA way. Monopolize everything. Your hubs, your routes, and most of all your labor and regional carrier groups. NWA loves to whipsaw. If they let in a new regional carrier that flies for NWA's competition, It would allow that new carrier to whipsaw NWA against its competition. NWA would not have any of that. The RFP was a tool to get 9e and xj to lower operating cost. Just like the threat of new co was a threat to the NWA mec to release 70 seat flying.

I have no idea about the ASA that was signed with 9E, but I know that up until last year, Mesaba was prohibited from flying outside of NW by virture of the ASA. Not only that, NW owned all but a couple of our aircraft. And Mesaba didn't have the money, outside of MAIR, to finance any new aircraft aquisitions... So I'm just curious, how was Mesaba and, possibly, even Pinnacle supposed to seek flying outide of NW??? No argument here, just curious...

 

[ASH]

This may be a slight omission, but I happen to know that Republic Airways has also submitted a bid, although not near the lowest cost.

 

[Tank Commander]

By starting secondary tickets. 9e has been getting one ready for the last year. With the uncertainty of NWA, they found it in their best interest to do so. 9e and xj are independent of NWA. NWA did at one time own controlling stock in 9e, but sold it to bail out their pension plan a year and a half ago. The ASA is what holds us and you to only flying for NWA on the current tickets the company's fly under. The first word out of 9e management after the RFP was announced was they were going to get the new ticket going at high speed to seek other flying. Two weeks latter it was announced that the new ticket was going on to the back burner and they were just going to concentrate on the bid with NWA. In my opinion, if 9e was to finish the ticket and announce its plan to fly outside of NWA, 9e would surly loose all fling with NWA. Spin-off Airlines start up all the time. Remember, 9e was a NewCo airline for NWA when it started off of the Express1 ticket that NWA bought.

 

[8HourPilot]

According to a cool j/s guy in Den a week ago, 9e has all the flying locked. His upgrade was also in exactly 11 months too. Bottom line, nobody knows till this is all over.

 

[sniper]

More details for all the drooling regional folks out there:

The NWA MEC sent out an email basically saying the in order to keep the mainline flying, we have to give up 70 seaters. Big surprise huh. Promises of mainline flying bigger RJ's (90 seaters) basically just sugar to make the medicine go down.

36- 70 seat RJ's to replace AVRO's, bidders in contention, PNCL (not likely from NWA VP), Mesaba ( bid was way high unless they get the paycuts) and Mesa. Bid was supposidely 14% lower than the lowest. Obvious here say, just repeating what I was told.

Up to 50 more, with ratios for mainline and replacement of 50 seaters.

some sort of deal were furloughed mainline guys have to get the right to fly CAptain of any plane bought initially by NWA, yadda yadda yadda. sound familiar, US AIR, Midatlantic?

Mesa will not fly any NWA flying and the J4J deal is never going to happen at Mesa again. They have new leadership about to take over after March 1st,
and they are not about selling everything for growth....

No more of that I was told.

 

[DoinTime]

Info did not come from a management type. It came from a union type getting me ready for the bad news. Who gets to fly the 70 seaters, who knows and I really don't care...............

And where do you think this "union type" got the information? There is no way NW management would leak factual information of this sort.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Wouldn't put it passed you. Didn't seem to hesitate to send those checks to Gulfstream.

YAWN......


next......

 

[PCL_128]

Why not? Mesa sucks up flying all over this industry because of their low operating cost. Why wouldn't they win the bid for red tail flying? I'm sure they'll undercut Mesaba and Pinnacle.

Mesa's operating costs are a few hundred dollars/block hr higher than Pinnacle's. Pinnacle has the lowest operating costs in the industry, even though Mesa has the lowest pilot costs. This is due to Mesa's high overhead in other areas that allows them to operate multiple certs and fly for multiple carriers at the same time. The only way for Mesa to underbid Pinnacle would be for Mesa to accept the flying at a loss. JO isn't the kind of guy to fly for a loss. He recently stated that he flat-out refuses to even pay for fuel costs.

Anyway, that is all beside the point. The point is that NWA management values control over everything else. Even if they had to pay XJ and 9E more to do the flying, then they happily would as long as they could keep controlling them as they do now. As it stands, XJ and 9E management do anything that NWA management tells them to do. Do you really believe that Bedford or Orenstein would agree to such an arrangement? Johnny O would laugh his butt off if NWA management called him up and told him that he had to use a certain vendor for his ground servicing in hub. On the other hand, our CEO at 9E continues to keep Mesaba ground servicing in DTW even though the service is horrendous and our whole management group has wanted to get rid of them for years. Why? Because NWA management tells them to. Besides 9E and XJ, who else is going to put up with that kind of control?

 

[captpetefam]

That was just about the juiciest looking bait I've seen in a while. Any takers?

CP

 

[ASH]

Um, again, keep one eye on REP in this deal..

 

[flyin backwards]

Mesa's operating costs are a few hundred dollars/block hr higher than Pinnacle's. Pinnacle has the lowest operating costs in the industry, even though Mesa has the lowest pilot costs.

I don't think 9E has the lowest costs in the industry. Please provide me with where you get that info, or better yet post a link to it. You keep saying that but I've read otherwise, as a matter of fact for FQ 4 last year 9E's ASM was among the highest. Please prove me wrong.

 

[Carl_Spackler]

Which ASM are you talking about?

CASM, RASM?

 

[xjhawk]

well, my opinion hardly matters, but i think NWA would not allow an outside regional in their backyard when they do not have a tight leash on them, and then there is the fact that their execs have so much at sake with stock options in pinnaple and masabi.

on the comment about PCL 128.5 and the ground handling????? yes detroit sucks...we admit that, but have you taken a look at all of your stations? Do you think your management could find quality people in the detroit area to work for those wages those poor souls get? Take a look at all your out stations...my god! ground service my A$$! they are forgetting about the service half the time.

But, i hope both of us hold the line and not give in, we are afterall brothers and sisters in that reguards....though we might argue sometimes...l

 

[AWACO]

36- 70 seat RJ's to replace AVRO's, bidders in contention, PNCL (not likely from NWA VP), Mesaba ( bid was way high unless they get the paycuts) and Mesa. Bid was supposidely 14% lower than the lowest. Obvious here say, just repeating what I was told.

So did this info come from a MEC mailing or someone telling you? Im not be confrontational but its implications are important to those involved. I would like to know how it was leaked what the high and low bidders are if it is indeed fact. My guess it is just another 'a friend of a friend knows the maid for the guy who sold a boat to Steeland back in 2001.'

 

[flyin backwards]

Which ASM are you talking about?

CASM, RASM?

Sorry, I quess I'm stupid. CASM is what I was talking about.

 

[XJdriver]

I posted this about a month ago showing how PNCL is the most expensive regional listed at the DOT web site with cost per availible seat mile. I also provided a link. The moral is PNCL has a crappy contract and is expensive. I think it is time to lay off the company cool aid. Hopefully we won't end up with a worse contract.

As far as the XJ ramp workers doing PNCL flights give it up. Any idiot could work the ramp in MEM. There is only 3 banks of flights. You work for an hour and then get a 4 hour break in nice weather. In MSP and DTW they don't get any breaks and work multiple flights at once. I agree it isnt perfect but you are not comparing apples to apples it is more like apples.
I do have to say it is funny to watch the rampers in MEM. When it gets to 40 degrees they all have on snowmobile suits and look like they are at the south pole.



AS PREVIOUSLY POSTED

I decided to check to see how cheap 9E really is. Here is the info I got from the DOT.

As you see it is the worst (highest cost per seat mile) on the list and is going down hill over time.

http://www.bts.gov/press_releases/20...bts058_05.html

Sorry I couldnt get the tables to hold their format.


Quote:
The carriers with the highest unit costs were network airlines Northwest and US Airways (Table 10) and regional carrier Pinnacle (Table 12). The carriers with the lowest unit costs were low-cost carriers JetBlue, Southwest and AirTran Airways (Table 11).

Table 12: Airline Domestic Unit Costs (Cents per Mile)

Regionals
Ranked by 3rd Quarter 2005 Domestic Unit Costs
(Domestic Operating Expenses per Available Seat Mile in cents)

3Q 2005 RankRegional Carriers 3rd Quarter 2005
1 Pinnacle 16.2
2 Comair 14.7
3 American Eagle 14.6
4 SkyWest 13.7
5 Atlantic Southeast 13.3
6 ExpressJet 11.7
7 Mesa 10.7

Source: Bureau of Transportation Statistics; Form 41; Schedule P1.2. T100; T2 Data.