NWA70 Rejected

[balls deep340]

Last update: August 6, 2004 at 11:56 PM
NWA rebuffs pilots' bid for 70-seaters

Liz Fedor, Star Tribune August 7, 2004 NWA0807

Northwest Airlines wants pilots at regional carriers to fly 70-seat jets, despite the willingness of Northwest pilots to take pay cuts to fly those planes.

Pilot negotiators rejected the company's proposal Thursday.

"We're not going to be giving up the right to fly those 70-seat aircraft," said Curt Kruse, a pilot and spokesman for the Northwest branch of the Air Line Pilots Association (ALPA). "Either Northwest pilots will fly them or they won't be flown."

Northwest doesn't own or operate any 70-seat jets. Under the current contract, all Northwest flying in airplanes containing 55 seats or more must be performed by Northwest pilots, except for the 69-seat Avros flown by Mesaba Airlines.

Northwest ALPA leaders have acknowledged that it would not be cost-effective for Northwest to acquire 70-seat jets and fly them at pay rates included in the current contract. The union estimated that it costs regional carrier Comair $100.35 per hour for a captain to fly a 70-seat jet, while the comparable cost for a Northwest DC-9 captain would be $191.20.

Pilot negotiators recently proposed lower pay rates and benefit and work-rule changes that the union said would allow Northwest to compete with other airlines that operate 70-seat jets.

But the union said Friday that Northwest restated its desire to "outsource the 70-seat flying." Northwest is seeking the flexibility to contract with Mesaba, Pinnacle Airlines or another regional carrier.

In recent months, Pinnacle CEO Philip Trenary has expressed an interest in his airline flying larger regional jets for Northwest. The Memphis-based carrier now flies 44- and 50-seat Canadair Regional Jets (CRJs) on Northwest's regional routes. Northwest intends to acquire 129 CRJs for Pinnacle by next year.

But Northwest cannot contract with Pinnacle, Mesaba or another regional carrier to fly 70-seat jets unless the Northwest pilots agree to such an arrangement at the bargaining table.

Northwest declined to comment Friday on the 70-seat jet issue. Pilot negotiations resume next week.

Liz Fedor is at

 

[Heavy Set]

Good job guys! Stay strong!

 

[gordon24]

Funny how times change. Now everyone wants to be "scooter-trash"!

Please, please, please can I fly that 70? I'll even underbid Comair. Sickening....

 

[Saabslime]

Please, please, please can I fly that 70? I'll even underbid Comair. Sickening....

Who said they're trying to underbid Comair?? They offered pay and work rules that would be in-line with present day rates to allow NWA to compete in the market with this airframe. I wish more mainline MEC's would do the same.

 

[80drvr]

Funny how times change. Now everyone wants to be "scooter-trash"!

Please, please, please can I fly that 70? I'll even underbid Comair. Sickening....

Well, you can't get a pay raise on flying you don't own. NWA ALPA apparently think it's in the best interests of their pilots to stop the bleeding from outsourcing flying.

 

[GogglesPisano]

Hold the line NWA pilots! The flying belongs to you, please don't give it away!



scope!

 

[ExAF]

Not Underbidding Anyone

Any flying at NWA that has more than 55 seats has been "bought and paid for" already with current scope agreements. Now mgt wants to fly more small jets than they are allowed and add equipment with more than 55 seats. NWA-ALPA is just holding on to the flying and jobs they have already negotiated for in the current and previous contracts. The COMAIR rates are only provided to show where rates are right now for that class of equipment in the industry. I don't know about you, but I'd rather fly a 70 seater for NWA mainline at a competitive rate than watch that flying get pissed away to Pinnacle or Mesaba and continue the bleeding/outsourcing of mainline jobs. If the flying wasn't worth doing, they wouldn't have protected it in previous contracts.

 

[NEDude]

Glad to see the NWA pilots holding strong on this. I hope they continue to. Have to wonder how management will publicly portray their reasoning for insisting the flying be outsourced when their current employees are willing to do it for the same price.

 

[balls deep340]

Glad to see the NWA pilots holding strong on this. I hope they continue to. Have to wonder how management will publicly portray their reasoning for insisting the flying be outsourced when their current employees are willing to do it for the same price.

Real simple NWA Mgmt. position is - even if the pilots fly it for free the costs are still higher than out sourcing because of other employees.

Holding the line in regards to scope may be the most popular or heroic thing to do but, it is unrealistic and in my opinion very arrogant. A compromise is in order to keep the company on a strong footing. Why not try to outsource and get some J4J deal for all the furloughed pilots that will probably be recalled any how before the jets even come on-line in '07 & '08.

NWA70 just makes a lovely B scale and we all know how fair those are. Union rhetoric about how your scope is bought and paid for is just that rhetoric to get those planes on the property you would have to make so many other sacrafices as far as pay and work rules elsewhere in the company.

Out sorcing 70 seaters in the long run will bring more jobs to mainline and help return the company to profitablilty. It is envitable.

 

[ASH]

Out sorcing 70 seaters in the long run will bring more jobs to mainline and help return the company to profitablilty. It is envitable.

yeah, more mainline jobs circulated back around at LOWER RATES.

Hold the line NWAP. It seems your the last giant standing.

 

[Sam Fisher]

Real simple NWA Mgmt. position is - even if the pilots fly it for free the costs are still higher than out sourcing because of other employees.

Holding the line in regards to scope may be the most popular or heroic thing to do but, it is unrealistic and in my opinion very arrogant. A compromise is in order to keep the company on a strong footing. Why not try to outsource and get some J4J deal for all the furloughed pilots that will probably be recalled any how before the jets even come on-line in '07 & '08.

NWA70 just makes a lovely B scale and we all know how fair those are. Union rhetoric about how your scope is bought and paid for is just that rhetoric to get those planes on the property you would have to make so many other sacrafices as far as pay and work rules elsewhere in the company.

Out sorcing 70 seaters in the long run will bring more jobs to mainline and help return the company to profitablilty. It is envitable.

Phil Trenary? Paul Foley? Is that you? The pro-management rhetoric is dripping............

Sam

 

[FN FAL]

I have some "FULL PAY TILL THE LAST DAY!" bumper stickers for sale...

 

[JohnDoe]

You're right FN FAL.........Northwest is going to go bankrupt without 36 additional 70 seaters....Don't know how they'll survive.

 

[balls deep340]

Well with all those defeatist attitudes NWA will falter. The LCC will eventually keep pluging away and clean house unless the legacy boys get a clue. I wish I could take all you NWA pilots and stick you in a room and give you a business class.

 

[80drvr]

Well with all those defeatist attitudes NWA will falter. The LCC will eventually keep pluging away and clean house unless the legacy boys get a clue. I wish I could take all you NWA pilots and stick you in a room and give you a business class.

I'm not a NWA guy, but I am at a legacy carrier. Your wish is granted. Please teach me about the airline business.

 

[balls deep340]

I'm not a NWA guy, but I am at a legacy carrier. Your wish is granted. Please teach me about the airline business.

Ok its really tough put your thinking cap on my man.

If you make 195 dollars and hour and someone else is willing to work for 155 dollars an hour than your company will slowly wither away. A bit simplistic, yes. The unions can not keep the guy who is willing to sell out the profession, working for lower wages, at bay forever. ``

 

[80drvr]

Ok its really tough put your thinking cap on my man.

If you make 195 dollars and hour and someone else is willing to work for 155 dollars an hour than your company will slowly wither away. A bit simplistic, yes. The unions can not keep the guy who is willing to sell out the profession, working for lower wages, at bay forever. ``

So that's all there is to know about the airline business....he who pays the lowest wages wins. I guess all those Harvard guys wasted a lot of time and money then. Someone better tell SWA that they need to start losing money.

Ever wonder how Cosctco competes with Walmart?

 

[balls deep340]

Lesson number 2 legacy carriers are saddled with billions in debt. Another drain. Most LCC don't have debt that is so substantial.


Look there are a lot of reasons Legacy's are in trouble - NWA pilots can only change a few of the reasons like their pay and their scope. In other words shut your mouths and do your part. I know it sucks but you have to do what you have to do.

 

[FN FAL]

You're right FN FAL.........Northwest is going to go bankrupt without 36 additional 70 seaters....Don't know how they'll survive.

I don't think they will go bankrupt...not even close! The company has played their cards pretty smart so far. They have the least amount of debt and a pretty good brand name going for them. Their pilot's union has worked hard to get their pilots what they have negotiated for and from what I have read in the news, their pilots have been more than accomodating towards helping the company make it through these hard times.

The fact remains that times "they are a changing". Otherwise NWA the company and NWA the pilot union wouldn't be discussing these 70 seat airplanes.

I think the quick answer would be to divide them 70 seaters up amongst the two code share partners and do like what happened at PSA. Jets for Jobs. That way there will be no problems with trying to figure the discount logistics of operating the new aircraft at mainline.

In order to make the numbers work for NWA mainline, you'll have to get mechanics to take a pay cut, flight attendants, ramp agents and on and on (already beat to death already).

By out sourcing them 70 seaters with a Jets for Jobs program, your bottom end at NWA could be flying them as captains at the code shares and come up into NWA once the times are better. No problems with flow through, flow back or...

What I don't see happening over the long haul is NWA guys promising flow through to the pinnacle and mesaba guys. The seniority number idea is grand, but who wants to take a half cut in pay or more to fly regional jets at NWA mainline, just to get hosed on the next contract?

We had one poster that sounded like a military DC-9 FO that said he was going to stay working for the gubment till they sorted things out and didn't want to fly the 70 seaters at reduced wages. So it almost sounds as if the 70 seaters is a bastard child waiting to happen.

Here's a suggestion. Out source the 70 seaters, but INSOURCE the training department? Will that reduce paranoia about what is happening with the 70 seaters? Heck, you guys are going to take huge paycuts to fly em, but in the end the NWA company bottom line is going to be better up the road...so who really cares if mainline flys the 70 seaters at regional pay levels or if regional pilots fly them under contract?

Do Jets for Jobs, keep the training in house and let this thing run it's course.

It sounds like mainline pilots don't want to fly the things, but they want control? I could be wrong...but it seems like you read one thing, then you read the other in the press.

Thanks for having me along as an outside observer...

 

[320AV8R]

Origionally posted by Balls Deep 340:

Real simple NWA Mgmt. position is - even if the pilots fly it for free the costs are still higher than out sourcing because of other employees.

What "other employees"? All their employees are paid by NWA. NWA underwrites the entire operation at PCL & Mesaba. They use NWA gates & Reservations. NWA buys their fuel & pays the landing fees. NWA buys all the seats on the aircraft. NWA guarantees them a prieum, even with their 15 cent CASM.


Holding the line in regards to scope may be the most popular or heroic thing to do but, it is unrealistic and in my opinion very arrogant.

Everyone has an opinion. Good thing you're not on the Negotiations Committee.


NWA70 just makes a lovely B scale and we all know how fair those are.

Compared to what...stacking mulch in an orange apron? Naw...$80 or $100 K per year would really blow.


Union rhetoric about how your scope is bought and paid for is just that rhetoric to get those planes on the property you would have to make so many other sacrafices as far as pay and work rules elsewhere in the company.

Negotiating "Capital" was expended in the last two contracts to secure this level of flying. It is ours to keep or negotiate away. There are no other sacrifices to make to keep this flying.

Out sorcing 70 seaters in the long run will bring more jobs to mainline and help return the company to profitablilty. It is envitable.

Just like the present day? PCL is expanding like mad, adding new RJs every week. Mainline is not profitable, and we still have over 800 guys on the street.