NWA70 Rejected

[Lear70]

There are $10 whores and $50 whores. Now that we know that, the difference in the price does not change the fact that both are whores. Ultimately the "trade" will go to the lady with the lowest bid until all eventually become $10 whores.

I guess you don't get to Windsor very often... The difference between the $100 whore and the $500 whore is usually about 20 years, 20 pounds, and 20 less "customers" per day, leading to an experience usually worth the difference in money. Oops, gave myself away again!

There is a current "trend" to sacrifice contractual gains in exchange for short term growth potential. I think that is a serious mistake that will adversely affect both mainline and regional for a very long time. Perhaps I'm wrong but I do not see this "race to the bottom" as beneficial to any pilot group. In my view it is "penny wise and pound foolish".

That's probably the wisest thing I've heard on this board in a looonnnggg time.

So I'll bite, just because I've heard a few things that I've said in one fashion or another over the last three years at the regional level (where I never expected to be)... What, Surplus, IS the solution? I can't quite swallow the pill the RJDC is trying to hand out and believe that leaving ALPA is sheer lunacy, but also believe that ALPA can't POSSIBLY fairly represent both sides of the fence...

 

[fly4ever]

Lear70,

I appreciate the response and the exchanges in this thread. I will, however, disagree with you on the work rules statement -quote - "Incidentally, MSA work rules aren't that big of an increase...". You are wrong on that issue. For starters, MSA pilots are employees and paid from day one of training, are provided with single occupancy hotel room during training and have jumpseat and pass privileges from day one.

Already, our contract pays more for the first year pilot compared to PCL no matter what equipment we fly. We come out at least two months ahead on pay right at the start.

We also have SAT(scheduled average time) or better per leg meaning we don't have to give the company 15 minutes extra before we start making more money on a leg like you do.

The four hour minimum day is a look forward deal which has forced the company to be more efficient in scheduling to get the most bang for their buck. That has helped our schedules.

A far as a day's schedule goes - I just finished a 2-day at 8 hours scheduled day one and 6 on day two rather than what used to happen with a 2-day flying 3 hours each day and only getting paid for those hours.

We don't have to fly 100 hours with 10 days off to get descent pay. We end up crediting 95-105 hours without having to fly 95-100 hours to do it. Work rules allow us to work smarter, not harder.

I hope you can achieve the work rules we have then you'll have an idea of what we are talking about. These I mentioned above are only a few of the work rules that add not only to our bottom line but add to our quality of life. I"m not trying to say we have anywhere near where we wanted to be and I do feel as though we were mislead to a certain extent but I think that most tried to make a decision on our contract based on what we were presented with and how our families would fare in the event we went to a strike. It is a tough position to be in no doubt about it. This whole contract process has been a bitter pill to swallow. I wish you all luck when dealing with your management a.k.a. NWA in your contract negotiations.

Respectfully

 

[Lear70]

Already, our contract pays more for the first year pilot compared to PCL no matter what equipment we fly. We come out at least two months ahead on pay right at the start.

No argument there, you guys did pretty good for new-hires, no doubt about it. My issue stems from CA rates - what everyone is shooting to get to and what most pilots at PCL can within 1 - 2 years now (if they have the flight time), probably increasing to 3-4 years by the end of negotiations. I'd like to see our F/O's make $30k minimum first year with 3% longevity and another 3% COL increase per year after that, but CA pay also needs to increase by 20 - 30% (which would still put us 10% under CMR - I advocate more but that argument has about 50/50 support here).

A far as a day's schedule goes - I just finished a 2-day at 8 hours scheduled day one and 6 on day two rather than what used to happen with a 2-day flying 3 hours each day and only getting paid for those hours.

I had a similar schedule last month (7.5 to 8 hours scheduled per day), it was nice (although tiring) to get it done and go home. However, our MEC in looking very closely at a min day clause such as yours, has spoken with the MSA MEC, and is being told that the bottom 40-50% of the MSA seniority list are being built lines with just over the min day flying assigned. Min day clauses don't help if they can just shift the flying to cover the "min day" and give "min days off". I'd much rather have a duty rig.

We don't have to fly 100 hours with 10 days off to get descent pay. We end up crediting 95-105 hours without having to fly 95-100 hours to do it. Work rules allow us to work smarter, not harder.

I agree completely. I'm crediting 97 hours with 13 days off and just trip traded for a 31 hour BOS overnight. The point I'm making is that your work rules give you a 2-3% raise over what we get when compared paycheck-to-paycheck for Captains; a raise not worth it, in my book, for the hourly wages that were signed. We need trip and duty rigs to give value to both our CDO's and day-trips / overnight trips and give incentives not to schedule for a "min day".

I'm not trying to say we have anywhere near where we wanted to be and I do feel as though we were mislead to a certain extent but I think that most tried to make a decision on our contract based on what we were presented with and how our families would fare in the event we went to a strike. It is a tough position to be in no doubt about it. This whole contract process has been a bitter pill to swallow. I wish you all luck when dealing with your management a.k.a. NWA in your contract negotiations.

I'm sure it WAS difficult. My friends over there, including the ones that voted "yes", told me in both words and expression just how hard it was to decide, especially after being rallied so hard then let down just as hard. Thank you for the good wishes, we're going to need all the luck we can get, especially dealing with the "puppet masters" in Eagan.

 

[P38JLightning]

growth segment?

1) Your proposal does not incorporate the 36 aircraft that MSA is currently flying (the Avros).

>>>>Unfortunately, it appears that it does and would result in the Avros being eliminated, which in effect transfers that flying to you. MSA should be able to get replacements (not 50-seat, which pay much less) but the equivalent of what they now have.
Surplus,

Why is it you think 70 seat flying is so valueable for the Comair/ASA pilot groups? Sure, an airframe is an airframe, and jobs are jobs, but in case you haven't noticed, the low bidder whores are growing like crazy while we stagnate. They played ball and underbid us which, make no mistake about it (and this often gets overlooked) was a huge victory for management. Financial to be sure. But philosophical also.

We give management lots of credit for wanting to be profitable. But at times management will waste tons of money merely in the name of personal pride or perhaps to enhance their personal employment opportunities down the road, even at the enormous expense of their present employer (i.e. the 750 billion wasted to save 40 million just a couple years ago).

So while SkyWest and Chautauqua's backstabbing agreements (which were negotiated with the express intent on capturing future Comair/ASA orders and options) have resulted in them getting the lion's share of growth (ditto for the United side as well) where they really stand below the crowd is in their 70 and 90 seat rates. Their 50 seat rates are a comfortable margin below us that allows their management to effectively underbid us. Their predatory (and backstabbing) 70 and 90 seat rates are something I don't think we can compete with unless we achieve some much needed harmful scope to protect our group, or underbid them. Which would you prefer?

The trend lately is not only low balling, but low balling on a reverse expoential curve. The bigger the equipment, the cheaper by comparison to us they will get. This has gone on long enough, yet there is no answer from ALPA or the RJDC. Both parties are guilty of dragging their feet, perhaps for different reasons, but the result is the same.

On another note, isn't it funny how management's portfolio efforts at "strike proofing" their hubs has focused more on us than ASA who'se in negotiations? They water down ATL with the highest paid (not really a threat I'd say) and go nuts in CVG. Wonder why?

 

[strega7]

(which were negotiated with the express intent on capturing future Comair/ASA orders and options)

Have SkyWest's payrates allowed it "capture" any Comair flying recently? Can you prove SkyWest is after your orders and options or are you just alittle paranoid? Don't see many SkyWest DCI 70's in SLC these days. Yeah we got 7 more 50's but your ASA buddies got alot more. Doesn't make alot of sense. But then again what does?

Fly Safe.

 

[fly4ever]

Lear70,

Good thoughts and great goals to shoot for. I hope you and the rest of your colleagues are successful.

BTW, I am in the bottom 40% of the pilot group so I can speak to the fact that I have benefited from the 4 hour min day. My schedule for August is 15 days off and 88 hours(crediting quite a bit more) so I think crew planning has improved the schedules to some extent under the pressure of making things more efficient. Also the fact that NWA has given us more flying in order to pressure their own pilots has certainly improved our schedules. A temporary situation at best.

We wish you the best of luck but we temper that with knowing that your goals were also ours at one time and the tactics used by the company (and possibly our MEC) made it very difficult to achieve those strike or no strike.

Fly

 

[Paul R. Smith]

NWA pilots,

Keep pluggin. You guys have the advantage. MGMT wants somin from you!!! Drag your heels, don't budge. Hell you guys have learned from the best. (ie. NWA mgmt.) How may strikes has it been? Keep up the good work boys.

BTW its trully nice to see that despite the whole red/green book thing, you all still know how to stick together and show mgmt what for, even if you all are not buddy-buddy. Kudos to you. I'd buy you all a beer if I could afford it. I'm glad to see there are still a pilot groups out there that can still see the forest for the trees.