NWA & the 787

[a320drivr]

Boeing snares another U.S. 787 order

Northwest Airlines deal could involve up to 68 jets
By August Cole, MarketWatch
Last Update: 5:33 PM ET May 5, 2005

SAN FRANCISCO (MarketWatch) - Northwest Airlines on Thursday said it's ordering 18 of Boeing Co.'s next new commercial jet, the 787 Dreamliner, and could take as many as 50 more planes as part of the deal.

The 18 planes are worth almost $2.2 billion at a list price of $120 million each. If Northwest goes for all 68 jets, the deal's value would rise to about $8.16 billion at list prices.

For Chicago-headquartered Boeing (BA: news, chart, profile) , it is the third large deal recent announcement for new 787s. Billions in orders from Air Canada and Air India stole headlines last month.

It is a rare domestic order for Boeing, which is also selling the 787 to Continental Airlines (CAL: news, chart, profile) and upstart Primaris Airlines. Asian airlines so far have had a much bigger appetite for the new plane.

Northwest (NWAC: news, chart, profile) , which plans to be the first carrier in North America to put the plane into service in 2008, plans to seat 36 passengers in its business class service and 185 in coach. Deliveries will start in August of that year.

Northwest also flies Airbus jets, as well.

 

[Whale Rider]

Congrates guys! Go Boeing!

 

[Workin'Stiff]

Kinda funny how I post a thread about this and the topic turns to NWA paint job. Oh well....

 

[ironwedge]

Cool 787's AND Miller Lite all in the same week...a big week for NWA!

 

[Tomct]

About time Northwest got on the RIGHT PAGE for aircraft! Can't believe they bought that POS a330 over the B777. Not even a comparision!
Boeing Baby....Boeing!

 

[Schwanker]

About time Northwest got on the RIGHT PAGE for aircraft! Can't believe they bought that POS a330 over the B777. Not even a comparision!
Boeing Baby....Boeing!

According to NWA, the A330 is better sized for NWA markets. The key to selling the A330 is 40% lower operating cost. That amounts to a lot of cash while hauling around a bunch of cheapskates. The A330 does have a respectable cargo capability as well. NWA published their rational for choosing the A330 back in 2001. A worthwhile reading if you care to get an insight on managements decision process. To date, management, as well as flight crews, have been extremely happy with the A330. The B777 is definately a more capable aircraft (range/payload). The decision came right down to economics.

The DREAMLINER is awesome news! This will likely adjust block hours way up meaining many more pilot jobs. I'm assuming lots of flights will be bypassing international hubs (Amsterdam/Narita) as demand warrants. This will also likely increase feed into the international hubs via more gateways. Good news for current seniority list guys as well as those someday hoping NWA is in their future.

 

[Schwanker]

Tomct, Here's NWAs comparison of the B777 vs. the A330 for the Atlantic DC-10 Replacement.



Perspective on NW's Recent Selection of the A330 of
777

By Tim Campbell, Managing Director- Performance
Analysis

From On Course, Northwest Fligiht Operations Magazine
May/June 2001

The January February issue of On Course contained an
article by Capt. Jeff Carlson that outlined the
details of Northwest's multibillion-dollar ivestment
in new aircraft. A large component of this order
includes 24 PW4168A-powered A330-300s. Numerous
questions have arisen since the announcement of this
order, specifically why the A330 was selected instead
of the 777.

This article will address these questions by
summarizing our assessment of the performance
characteristics of the A330 relative to the 777 and
how this information was used in the final evaluation
of these two aircraft.

The competition between the 777 and A330 was for a new
aircraft that would replace our DC-10-30s on dedicated
transatlantic missions.

Perhaps the most important performance-related aspect
of this aircraft evaluation was finding the best match
between aircraft payload-range capability and
forecasted payload demand. We were seeking an aircraft
that efficiently meets our projected requirements. As
shown in the graphs, the A330 most optimally meets our
payload requirements in the Atlantic. This payload
capability, when coupled with operating costs and
projected market requirements (demand) for both
passenger and cargo traffic, offers the highest
earnings potential.

The match between capability and market requirements
is important because it is inefficient to operate
aircraft with excess capability. Our evaluation clearly
shows that the 777-200ER aircraft has significantly
more payload-range capability than the A330-300.

The additional range capability could be helpful if
the same aircraft were also flown across the Pacific.
However this possible dual mission capability was
determined to be impractical because Pacific aircraft
require a much greater share of World Business Class
seats than Atlantic aircraft. Furthermore, the Pratt
powered 777-200ER could not fly many critical Pacific
missions with full passenger load, and most missions
required weight limits on cargo.

This is not necessarily apparent if one looks from the
generic marketing material from Boeing because the
range of the 777-200, evaluated with Northwest rules
and interiors, is approximately 1,100 miles less than
advertised.

The 777 can carry more seats than the A330 although
the A330 already carries 29 more seats than our
current DC-10-30s. The optimal 777-200 configuration
we modeled had 27 more seats than the A330-300
(329-302) and 56 seats more than the DC-10-30
(329-273). However, these additional seats were
economy seats that typically would be filled with
lower yielding passengers.

The 777 has the same empty weight for all available
MTOW's (580,000-656,000 lbs). Northwest requires only
the lowest weight for nearly all markets, roughly
comparable to the A330. The net result to Northwest is
that the 777 is more than 41,000 pounds heavier than
the A330 yet provides minimal additional revenue
capacity.

The heavier weight of the 777 translates directly into
a fuel burn penalty. On a typical 3,500 nm mission,
the A330 burns approximately 28% less fuel than a
DC-10-30; accounting for its higher seating capacity,
it burns 35% less on a per seat basis. The much
heavier 777 burns approximately 16% more fuel than the
A330 on a per trip basis, and 6% more on a per seat
basis.

Questions have arisen about the cruise speed of the
A330, largely due to issues surrounding the cruise
speed of the A340. NW intends to operate the A330 at a
cruise speed of Mach 0.82. This speed corresponds to
the aircraft's LRC (long range cruise) Mach number for
most gross weight/altitude combinations. While the
published cruise speed of the A340 is Mach 0.82, our
analysis substantiates the experience of line pilots
taht certain operators fly slower to avoid excessive
fuel burn. Airbus has implicitly recognized the cruise
speed issue with the "first generation" A340's by
redesigning the wing on the A340-500 and -600.

757/767 DC10-30 A330 777/747-200
Cruise speed .80 .82 .82 .84


As shown in the table, the A33's cruise speed is
slower than the 777, but it is consistent with our
DC-10-30 and faster than other aircraft operating
across the Atlantic. The cruise speed differences
between the 777 and A330 equates to a trip length
difference of approximately 10 minutes on a typical
Atlantic mission. It may be interesting to note that
Northwest negotiated stringent, comprehensive
contractual commitments from Airbus to ensure the A330
will meet our performance expectations both at the
time of deliver and for several years thereafter.
This is a requirement we make of airframe/engine
manufacturers, including Boeing. The performance level
of the new 757-300's has a similar level of
protection. Our agreement with Airbus also provides us
with mission flexibility we could not achieve with
Boeing. The Airbus agreement is structured to allow us
to take delivery of other members of the A330 family
if our requirements change over time. A shorter
member of the A330 family, the A330-200, has 257
seats in the Northwest configuration. It has
approximately 900 nm more range than the A330-300.
This added flexibility to tailor capacity to market
requirements not offered by the 777 since Boeing was
unwilling to formally offer a smaller, lower priced
version of the 777.

In summary, the excess capacity of the 777 leads to
operating economics inferior to the A330. This
situation is further degraded when the notably higher
puchase price of the 777 is factored into the
analysis. The marginal improvement in revenue the
777's size offers simply cannot overcome its increased
operating and ownership costs. Our Atlantic
replacement decision does not mean that the 777 will
be excluded from future aircraft competitions. The
longer range version of the 777-200 and 777-300 will
be evaluated against the A340-500 and A340-600 when we
begin the 747-200 replacement analysis.

 

[Whale Rider]

Tomct, Here's NWAs comparison of the B777 vs. the A330 for the Atlantic DC-10 Replacement.

Ok, this article explains why NWA picked the A330 over the B777. So what does this have to do with the 787???? The 787 beat out, the not only the A330, but the A350 as well. NWA "was" a solid A330 stronghold until the 787 came along.

 

[FlyingSig]

So when will the news release come out that says if the employees don't give concessions then we'll have to cancel the order.... My money is within 30 days.

... obviously taking a page out of the Continental playbook (who copied Delta, who copied American, who said they just had to do it because of United..........)

 

[Whale Rider]

NW puts in official Boeing jet order

By Dominic Gates

Seattle Times aerospace reporter

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Northwest Airlines, until now Airbus' best customer in the United States, yesterday made official its defection to Boeing for a big widebody airplane order.

The carrier placed a firm order for 18 Boeing 787s, worth $2.2 billion at list prices, with options to purchase an additional 50 of Boeing's newest jet.

Six airplanes per year are scheduled for delivery in 2008 through 2010. But with all those options, Northwest's commitment to the new jet should stretch for years beyond that.

In a statement, Alan Mulally, president and chief executive of Boeing Commercial Airplanes, said: "We're thrilled to be on the Northwest team."

The thrills may continue in the next few months. Information from inside Boeing suggests that soon many of the already known 787 customer commitments will be firmed up — and that more, previously unannounced, 787 orders are in the works.

Among the unannounced orders is one from Qatar Airways, which has reserved delivery slots in 2008 and 2009.

A Surge of 787 Orders


Korean Air 10 firm 787s ($1.3 billion); 10 options.

Air Canada 14 firm ($1.8 billion); 46 options.

Air India 20 firm 787s ($2.6 billion); 7 options.

Northwest Airlines 18 firm 787s ($2.2 billion); 50 options.

Source: The Associated Press

News that Boeing had edged Airbus for Northwest's order first leaked out last month. The Boeing win is a big blow to Airbus' A350, the proposed rival to the 787.

Northwest already flies a fleet of 15 A330s, and has an additional 17 on order. It intends to take those, said an airline spokesman.

A carrier committed to the A330 might have been expected to go for the new Airbus A350, an updated derivative of the A330, to preserve commonality in its fleet.

That clearly had been the expectation of Henri Courpron, president and chief executive of Airbus North America.

In recent years, Boeing has complained often of Airbus' low-ball pricing after losing an order. This time, Courpron blamed Boeing pricing for the losses in two recent sales where he participated in negotiations.

"Airbus made a very aggressive offer for the A350 at both Northwest and Air Canada," Courpron said in a recent interview. "I can only assume that Boeing made a more aggressive offer, otherwise they wouldn't have won those two campaigns at places where we were the incumbent."

Courpron conceded that, with the upsurge in 787 orders, Boeing may best Airbus in orders this year for the first time since 2000.

According to an internal Boeing document obtained by The Seattle Times, that seems likely.

Boeing has so far publicly announced 82 firm orders for the 787 and a further 173 commitments to buy, referred to as "accepted proposals."

These represent advanced-sales prospects: The customer has reserved delivery slots and paid a refundable deposit of 1 percent of the list price, about $1.3 million.

Boeing expects to turn most of those into firm orders by midyear.

An internal document shows a further 35 accepted proposals not yet mentioned publicly. That would boost the tally of orders from 255 to 290.

The accepted proposals include an order for 10 787-8s going to Qatar Airways, now an all-Airbus customer on the Arabian Gulf.

Other still-open proposals from Qatar could bring its total to 60 787s, according to a Boeing insider.

The fact that 10 have already been allocated production slots suggests Boeing confidence that this deal will go through.

In addition, the head of the 787 program, Mike Bair, has said that his sales team has about 400 further open proposals under consideration with 25 other customers.

Among those looser possibilities is an order for 10 787s from Bellevue-based aircraft leasing company AWAS — originally known as Ansett Worldwide Aviation Services.

AWAS sales executive Charlie Soncrant yesterday acknowledged that his company is looking at the 787, but warned that talk of a deal is premature.

"We're real early in our investigations," Soncrant said. "We're just sizing things up."

Northwest is the world's fourth-largest airline with hubs at Detroit, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Memphis, Tokyo and Amsterdam.

In addition to its A330s, it operates a fleet of 150 Airbus A320 and A319 narrowbodies. It also flies 72 older Boeing 757s and 16 Boeing 747 jumbo jets.

Northwest's most valuable franchise is across the Pacific, including long-haul flights into Beijing. The airline is scheduled to take its first 787 in July 2008, in time for the Beijing Olympics.

 

[a320drivr]

What will the pay rates be? Same as the 330 or DC10?

 

[Schwanker]

Tomct, Here's NWAs comparison of the B777 vs. the A330 for the Atlantic DC-10 Replacement.

Ok, this article explains why NWA picked the A330 over the B777. So what does this have to do with the 787???? The 787 beat out, the not only the A330, but the A350 as well. NWA "was" a solid A330 stronghold until the 787 came along.

Whale Rider-
This has absolutely nothing to do with the 787. It has to do with Tomct remarks about the 330s. Thanks for asking.

Schwanker

 

[NuGuy]

About time Northwest got on the RIGHT PAGE for aircraft! Can't believe they bought that POS a330 over the B777. Not even a comparision!
Boeing Baby....Boeing!

Whatever...at the prices NWA paid, it got 2 330s for the price of one 777. That means that there are twice as many seats to be had on the pointy end, which is all that matters.

Nu

 

[Diesel-9]

NWA B-787 pay was $251 for 12 year CA before DEC 04 paycut. Now is at $213. A-330 is $209 and DC-10 is $208.

 

[§kyye Candy]

Does this analysis consider those AB "low pass" phenomenons? Just curious...