NWA Small Jet TA

[PCL_128]

Also if you look at the NWA pilot age groups, every pilot that is initially hired by Sjet will make the mainline in around 7 years regaurdless of whether or not they make captain.

Not necessarily. Remember, the flowthrough is subject to a ratio system. That means that once NWA starts hiring down the line they will not be required hire all newhires directly from SJet. They could set up a system that only takes 1 of every 3 newhires from SJet. That would dramatically slow things down.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

What will be the concessionary rates at XJ?

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Seniority - You either respect it or you don't. It should be considered sacred because in this industry sometimes seniority is all you have. The only regionals to pull off a Jets for Jobs program that didn't violate seniority were the UAX carriers SKYW and YV. UAL made up the difference between first and second year pay so none of the furloughs had to scrape by on less than 20/ hour. The UAX/UAL program was J4J done right. The NWA feeders should, in my opinion, be pointing to the UAX program and say that's the only way to go.

 

[Lear70]

Why wouldn't all sjet ca slots be filled with mainline furloughs? Who would choose to go to sjet as an fo?

Because if all SJet CA slots went to mainline furloughs, they'd have an almost impossible time attracting any QUALIFIED pilots for the F/O positions.

Seriously, if you knew you were going to get stuck as an F/O for 3 - 5 years, why would you leave what you already have seniority-wise unless you have only been at your other regional job for a year or two and / or you're coming out of flight instruction?

Besides that, I don't think they'll get more than 50% of their furloughed guys and gals to take this anyway. A LOT of them are already on board at jetBlue, AirTran, Southwest, FedEx, or have found a better way to make money and stay home every night.

They'll probably just keep doing what they're doing and wait for mainline call-back, and even then they might just pass until they HAVE to either come back or quit and if they're happier where they are... they might not come back AT ALL. If I was at FedEx I certainly wouldn't go back to Northwest...

 

[JT8D]

Seriously, if you knew you were going to get stuck as an F/O for 3 - 5 years, why would you leave what you already have seniority-wise unless you have only been at your other regional job for a year or two and / or you're coming out of flight instruction?

...

If you don't think guys off the street will go to SJets as FO's when offered a mainline seniority #...you don't have a clue.

Even if they spend 7 years as an FO...they will be beating the doors down to get in.

 

[DTW320]

Yes, SJet will get 10,000+ applications for the FO slots. Also if you look at the NWA pilot age groups, every pilot that is initially hired by Sjet will make the mainline in around 7 years regaurdless of whether or not they make captain

Yeah, around 1600 age 60 retirements in next 7 years. Its always run about 25% more than age 60 due to loss of medical, early, etc so that would be 2000. Add to that those that go early due to any incentive issued and it might be 2500 gone in the next 7 years. Subtract for possible change to age 60. Your mileage may vary.

 

[Fly4hire]

Not necessarily. Remember, the flowthrough is subject to a ratio system. That means that once NWA starts hiring down the line they will not be required hire all newhires directly from SJet. They could set up a system that only takes 1 of every 3 newhires from SJet.

A very important question in all of this is there any "poison pill" in the deal that ties delivery of these aircraft to hiring these pilots without condition?

Assuming no, would you agree to flow up/down as per SJet, or do you only want up?

Don't be so sure that no furloughed NWA pilot might not fly at SJet as an F/O if they thought the time in that seat was going to be short.

 

[Draginass]

Sounds like NW pilots got neutered just like US Air and UAL. Pretty soon ALPA will be nothing but eunichs.

 

[PCL_128]

A very important question in all of this is there any "poison pill" in the deal that ties delivery of these aircraft to hiring these pilots without condition?

Assuming no, would you agree to flow up/down as per SJet, or do you only want up?

Not exactly sure I understand the question. Can you clarify?

 

[FSIGRAD]

What will be the concessionary rates at XJ?

Mesaba proposed concessionary rates for potential 44-86 seat aircraft.
Years of service Captain FO
1. 50.58 20.38
2. 52.15 24.44
3. 53.72 26.83
4. 55.34 29.22
5. 56.97 30.09
6. 58.63 31.00
7. 60.23 31.92
8. 62.17 32.88
9. 64.08 “”
10. 66.04 “”
11. 67.95 “”
12. 70.02 “”
13. 72.11 “”
14. 74.34 “”
15. 75.37 “”
16. 76.65 “”
17. 77.96 “”
18. 79.28 “”

 

[Fly4hire]

Not exactly sure I understand the question. Can you clarify?

Sure - is there anything in the TA that ties the delivery of these jets to the jobs for furloughed NWA pilots? .....if an hiring agreement (as stipulated in the TA) is not reached XJ/PCL do not get any of these jets? That might add some leverage to negotiating the deal.

We don't know the answer yet, but if jobs for these acft for our guys is tied to a future agreement with XJ/9E MEC's it is yet another unacceptable hole in this TA

 

[DTW320]

Sounds like NW pilots got neutered just like US Air and UAL. Pretty soon ALPA will be nothing but eunichs.

Sounds like NWA went BANKRUPT just like USAir/UAL. Best of luck when it happens to you. BTW, this TA has not passed a vote yet.

 

[Yudso]

I'm sure you could find lots of FOs from other regional airlines that are looking at 5-8 year upgrades. If you're going to wait forever for an upgrade slot, you might as well get paid a few extra bucks an hour. They'll have no trouble filling the FO slots at SJet, I guarantee it.

I am not talking about those guys. I am talking about Nwa furloughs choosing the right seat versus the the left. Will four years of seniority at sjet be enough to entice nwa guys to go over to sjet?

 

[Lear70]

If you don't think guys off the street will go to SJets as FO's when offered a mainline seniority #...you don't have a clue.

Even if they spend 7 years as an FO...they will be beating the doors down to get in.

Don't have a clue? Yeah, what you said. Idiot.

Read my post again, slow down, and let your slow comprehension skills kick in.

I said QUALIFIED pilots.

I doubt you're going to get a high number of 5,000+ hour pilots "beating down the doors to get in". More likely low-time wonder kids straight out of PFT or 1st and 2nd year F/O's at other regionals with crappy QOL anyway.

I'm sure they'll get THOUSANDS of those... uke:

As far as "poison pills", I'm sure it'll have something in there that says for Flow-Up they will "have to pass the interview process just like any other new-hire". I know the F/A's says that for going to SJet... I'm sure it will work flow-up as well.

So you'd basically be working at SJet as an F/O for a guaranteed INTERVIEW at Northwest... assuming the flow-up works the same way as mid-atlantic.

CoEx and others don't have that "must pass an interview clause" because they had to talk the CoEx MEC into doing it and passing it by their pilots.

Still remains to be seen...

 

[PCL_128]

Sure - is there anything in the TA that ties the delivery of these jets to the jobs for furloughed NWA pilots? .....if an hiring agreement (as stipulated in the TA) is not reached XJ/PCL do not get any of these jets? That might add some leverage to negotiating the deal.

We don't know the answer yet, but if jobs for these acft for our guys is tied to a future agreement with XJ/9E MEC's it is yet another unacceptable hole in this TA

It would seem by my reading of the summaries (I haven't seen the actual TA language yet), then the jets are contingent on the jobs being available to the furloughed pilots. If the carrier that is to receive the jets refuses to give the NWA furloughs the jobs, then that carrier will not get the planes. Otherwise, NWA management would not be complying with the TA.

That means that if NWA management can't find a regional to accept those terms, then they will be forced to operate the aircraft at mainline or at their own subsidiary. That is why I say that NWA management will be required to offer some sort of flowthrough to the regional to get this to work. They have to "sell" this to the regional MECs, otherwise they will be forced to operate the aircraft themselves. That is my understanding anyway.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

NWA pilots should expect to spend very little time at SJet, maybe 4 years max.

 

[redflyer65]

Yea, sign me up for the FO slot so I can salivate at a mainline opening later. But in the meantime, the company gets sold to Mesa and I go to the bottom of their seniority list. Sounds like a great idea for career progression

 

[YourPilotFriend]

It would seem by my reading of the summaries (I haven't seen the actual TA language yet), then the jets are contingent on the jobs being available to the furloughed pilots. If the carrier that is to receive the jets refuses to give the NWA furloughs the jobs, then that carrier will not get the planes. Otherwise, NWA management would not be complying with the TA.

That means that if NWA management can't find a regional to accept those terms, then they will be forced to operate the aircraft at mainline or at their own subsidiary. That is why I say that NWA management will be required to offer some sort of flowthrough to the regional to get this to work. They have to "sell" this to the regional MECs, otherwise they will be forced to operate the aircraft themselves. That is my understanding anyway.

Hey, I told you guys weeks ago NewCo was still on the table, and you guys called me stupid.

 

[JT8D]

It would seem by my reading of the summaries (I haven't seen the actual TA language yet), then the jets are contingent on the jobs being available to the furloughed pilots. If the carrier that is to receive the jets refuses to give the NWA furloughs the jobs, then that carrier will not get the planes. Otherwise, NWA management would not be complying with the TA.

That means that if NWA management can't find a regional to accept those terms, then they will be forced to operate the aircraft at mainline or at their own subsidiary. That is why I say that NWA management will be required to offer some sort of flowthrough to the regional to get this to work. They have to "sell" this to the regional MECs, otherwise they will be forced to operate the aircraft themselves. That is my understanding anyway.

Bingo.

From what I understand, XJ and PCL are expected to not except these terms.

Sjets (newco) will most likely be the recipients of the aircraft. There will only be a handful of NWA furloughs as FO's...if any depending on early retirements.

The rest will be new hires off the street with a MAINLINE SENIORITY # when hired, not a "guaranteed interview" like Lear 70 suggests.

 

[Fly4hire]

It would seem by my reading of the summaries (I haven't seen the actual TA language yet), then the jets are contingent on the jobs being available to the furloughed pilots. If the carrier that is to receive the jets refuses to give the NWA furloughs the jobs, then that carrier will not get the planes. Otherwise, NWA management would not be complying with the TA.

I just spoke with one of our negotiators - that is correct. NWA pilots either get the Jets-for-Jobs or the feeder does not get the aircraft. 1/2 of all Captain/FO positions created by the addition of those aircraft up to 55. It also allows for up to 90 aircraft if ALL positions above 55 are staffed 100% with furloughed NWA pilots.

I agree that if your MEC's do not allow this they will go the the seperate certificate SJet route - it give them more flexibility and another carrier to whipsaw , but more importantly one they can pump it up and sell off in an IPO for a profit, which they can no longer do with PCL. This in itself favors the SJet option.

 

[Workin'Stiff]

NWA pilots should expect to spend very little time at SJet, maybe 4 years max.

That's a statment propped up on some pretty big assumptions...

 

[PCL_128]

Here's a question: Let's say NWA runs out of furloughed pilots that want slots at SJet and they end up hiring off the street just like any other regional. They'll probably end up getting the same pilots that we and other regionals get: CFIs and 135 pilots. So, let's say that some CFI gets hired at SJet this year as a newhire into the right seat. He stays for 7 years before flowing through to mainline. Now, mainline's junior airplane is the EMB-195 with a starting payrate in the $20s. Does this pilot start at that rate again, or is he afforded longevity based on his YOS at SJet? Anybody know? Seems like anyone that takes that route would get screwed big time if they don't get longevity based on time serves at SJet.

 

[Workin'Stiff]

Good question...

 

[JohnDoe]

quote:
"That's a statment propped up on some pretty big assumptions..."


No kidding.........

Plus, does he really think that folks that have already been on the street for over four years would consider 4 years at sjet "very little time????"

 

[320AV8R]

Here's a question: Let's say NWA runs out of furloughed pilots that want slots at SJet and they end up hiring off the street just like any other regional. They'll probably end up getting the same pilots that we and other regionals get: CFIs and 135 pilots. So, let's say that some CFI gets hired at SJet this year as a newhire into the right seat. He stays for 7 years before flowing through to mainline. Now, mainline's junior airplane is the EMB-195 with a starting payrate in the $20s. Does this pilot start at that rate again, or is he afforded longevity based on his YOS at SJet? Anybody know? Seems like anyone that takes that route would get screwed big time if they don't get longevity based on time serves at SJet.

If you are dealing with NWA, prepare to be screwed.

If you are dealing with NWA, & think you might get screwed, prepare to be screwed royally, very often, and repeatedly. And then some more, with even more following after that. And then some more......

 

[PCL_128]

If you are dealing with NWA, prepare to be screwed.

Truer words have never been spoken.

 

[JohnDoe]

Another couple of tidbits regarding sjet:

-Requirement to repay for your training if you leave prior to 12 months.
-No pay during company indoc during the initial.


Oh, and the contract goes until 2013, after which the first contract is mandatory arbitration for the first succeeding agreement.......

 

[Fly4hire]

Training.

1. • [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]3:30 per day; trip value for OE.
   
2. • No pay or credit for Free From All Duty days (FFAD)
   
3. • All pilots type rated during Initial Qualification (IQ). Requirement for pilots to [/FONT]repay [FONT=Times New Roman,Times New Roman]the training cost if they resign within the first 12 months.
   
4. • Distance Learning with 50% pay, NO credit. NO PAY for company indoctrination on initial qualification.
   
5. • CQ credit waived at pilot option.
   
6. • Non-seniority list instructors for all ground and simulator training. Seniority list check airman for line checks and OE.
   
7. • 1 year training freeze for NWA pilots who flow down and require IQ.

[/FONT]

 

[81Horse]

If you are dealing with NWA, prepare to be screwed.

You didn't see the T/A section about uniforms? The new uni trousers will have the zipper in the back.

 

[Going2Baja]

They'll probably just keep doing what they're doing and wait for mainline call-back, and even then they might just pass until they HAVE to either come back or quit and if they're happier where they are... they might not come back AT ALL. If I was at FedEx I certainly wouldn't go back to Northwest...

Lear70 - Are you reading my mind? Let's see, leave So Cal for a $40/hr job at SuckJet? NOPE! I'm glad that recall is set at 14 years. Hopefully I can put off recall until I can hold the 330 or 74-400 Capt.

As for being at Fed Ex and leaving - are you kidding? I wouldn't leave Alaska, Net Jets or a local 135 shop that I drive 5 minutes to go pull gear in a E195 for $60/hr. I'm glad to have that recall in my back pocket, but I REALLY doubt I'll ever use it unless things REALLY change in the next 10 years!

Baja.