NWA Small Jet TA

[DeucesWild]

Originally Posted by PCL_128
Regional pilots deserve the opportunity to flowthrough /quote]

That seems to be a common theme with you. You want something for nothing. Could you get a mainline job without a flowthough, or is that your only chance?

 

[Workin'Stiff]

I think PCL is just taking the stance that that should the regional pilots upgrade time come to a screeching halt due to furloughed NW pilots heading straight into the left seat of those aircraft, we should be entitled to something in return.

 

[DeucesWild]

Sorry, not even close. The idea of spending the rest of my career commuting to DTW and working for the sadistic scumbags in management at Northwest isn't exactly my idea of fun. However, if NWA management wants to outsource that flying, then they're going to have to give something for it. Regional pilots deserve the opportunity to flowthrough if they are going to allow leniency in their vacancy language for upgrade slots. Management isn't going to get this for free.

Bashing Management....Good Diversion! You must have been on the Debate team before you bought your GIA job.

 

[Yudso]

How will Nwa furloughs be integrated into the seniority? I assume stapling is out of the question.

 

[regionaltard]

That seems to be a common theme with you. You want something for nothing. Could you get a mainline job without a flowthough, or is that your only chance?

Hey, how about a "buythrough?"

 

[tripacer]

Ain't that the truth. Too bad they couldn't do better.

Hey PCL, just curious if you really are a CRJ captain, by that last statement I was wondering - whose side are you on?

 

[ImbracableCrunk]

Originally Posted by PCL_128
Regional pilots deserve the opportunity to flowthrough

That seems to be a common theme with you. You want something for nothing. Could you get a mainline job without a flowthough, or is that your only chance?

DeucesWild: That has to be the best example of taking something out of context I have ever witnessed.

The whole quote was this:

Regional pilots deserve the opportunity to flowthrough if they are going to allow leniency in their vacancy language for upgrade slots.

Note the important function of the word IF in his quote.

I believe what PCL_128 was trying to say is IF a 9E (or XJ for that matter) pilot votes for a contract that allows super-seniority for NWA furloughees, then he should be allowed to flow-through.

 

[Beetle007]

Nope, tune hasn't changed a bit. Sorry to disappoint you.
Now NWA management has to comply with the language in order to outsource those planes. Somehow they will have to convince a regional pilot group to make allowances in their vacancy language. Without a flowthrough, they'll be dead in the water.

You obviously haven't payed attention. How about they offer you three options:



Option 1. You get to keep all of your airplanes and we add another 20 or 55 new 70 seaters that will be filled with 1/2 Furloughed NWA pilots. And....once the furloughed pilots are recalled you will have ALL of those jobs for yourselves.

Option 2. You don't like option 1 so NWA takes ALL/Many of your airplanes away and gives them to the newly created SJet that NWA plans on selling in the future. Or maybe just give your 50 seaters to another regional.

Option 3. We aren't even considering giving you new airplanes and probably will take some/all of your current airplanes.

 

[PCL_128]

Hey PCL, just curious if you really are a CRJ captain, by that last statement I was wondering - whose side are you on?

I'm on the side of the entire profession. Allowing bigger and bigger airplanes to be outsourced isn't good for anyone in the long run. Would you rather fly that 76-seat EMB at a regional, or would you prefer to fly it as a newhire on a mainline seniority list? Think about what's best in the long term.

Allowing jets to be outsourced was the biggest mistake that ALPA has ever made.

 

[Rossa]

We already have a good idea what's going to happen.
NWA pilots will pass it (it'll be close), then b!tch about it for the rest of their careers. XJ mngt will kick the cr!p out of XJ ALPA in bk court - because the Judge is there to ensure that the COMPANY pulls through this, NOT to ensure that the Pilots get a fair deal. XJ will look like a diamond to NWA and investors = huge growth. 9E will lose jets to XJ (tightening the noose around their neck during negotiations). XJ pilots will wish their contract were as GOOD as MESA's.
When Spangebob comes out of bk court at the end of the month, he will be smiling (and have a woody) and the red tail family will look very different for the next 6 years.

Think I'm wrong?? Why do we have a brand new SOC with all the bells and whistles?? Why do we have a CRJ cert for a fleet of 2 planes??

 

[Rossa]

Why are we jumping all over PCL_128?? He/She doesn't decide anything with this TA.
How many of you guys would have taken the GIA route if you had the money and were able?? Sure, I don't like the idea either but until PILOTS stop hiring PFT's, we have nobody but ourselves to blame!!

 

[Lear70]

OK, I'm going to put this in plain English for those of you who JUST...AREN'T...GETTING IT. And you people fly airplanes? Scary.

PCL is absolutely correct, NWA isn't going to put ANY pilots in a Pinnacle-operated aircraft WITHOUT OUR MEC'S APPROVAL.

We at PCL currently have Member Ratification on ANY substantial change in working conditions, wages, or quality of life, which means we, as a group, will get to vote on it.

For those of you who haven't bothered to read into what PCL's been saying and have just found an opportunistic whipping boy, you should pay close attention to this part:

Northwest DOES control our future, they DO NOT control our pilot group or our contract. They can't put a single airplane on property here without the approval of the MEC unless they just want to let Pinnacle pilots fly all of them. If they want to take our 50-seaters because we won't play ball, fine. Take 'em. I'll go back to flying day charter in a Lear. I WILL NOT be held hostage to my job for someone else's gain. Fu*k that.

Now that I have your attention, most of the pilots feel the same way PCL does. Those airplanes SHOULD have stayed at mainline. But if they're going to come here, we're not going to allow OUR quality of life to be diminished because the NORTHWEST NEGOTIATING COMMITTEE screwed up.

That's right, I said screwed up. If they wanted to fly those airplanes they should have stuck to their guns. I'd have gladly supported you guys all the way and would have taken unemployment when WE were laid off as a result of your job action then I would have found another job. This would have given Delta (and other carriers) a bigger set of balls for drawing a line in the sand, so at least the demise of our jobs would have served SOME PURPOSE. But nooooo, you just keep giving ground and giving more ground, just like ALPA has for the last 10 years. It's pathetic and sad. Too bad your motto isn't the same as ours:

STFD: Shut The Fu*ker Down

So, if the aircraft come here (which I doubt), I welcome you to Pinnacle, now go sit reserve. You don't get any special privileges or perks, we're not going to bow down and worship you. If you want to fly your shiny new 70-seater here, that's fine, I don't want it. However, you WILL go to the bottom of the Captain list and sit reserve just like any other pilot at this company. When the time comes you WILL give us flow-through in seniority order. If your MEC can't handle those terms, find another carrier to put your Small Jets at.

Super Seniority? Whatever. *snicker* KMDA!

I'm sorry if you don't like them apples; if you don't, maybe you should vote NO on your T.A. Either way, I don't give a D*MN what you THINK you're entitled to. In this life, you don't get what you are entitled to, you get what you negotiate, and in this case it's a big sh*t sandwich.

If you haven't figured it out yet, I'm HIGHLY disappointed in the NC at the Northwest MEC, and I think your members feel the exact same way.

/rant

p.s. I'm a furloughed 727 Captain myself, and I didn't like going to the bottom of a CRJ seniority list either, but I sucked it up and did it BECAUSE THAT'S HOW THE INDUSTRY WORKS. If you don't like it, go sell real estate or used cars.

p.s.s. MOST of the Northwest pilots who have come to work here have quietly gone on reserve and sat on reserve for several years in most cases. I can only assume that MOST of your pilots who WOULD come here under such a set of circumstances would be just as professional, and the vocal minority on this message board is just that... a vocal minority of the Northwest pilot group.

 

[DeucesWild]

Why are we jumping all over PCL_128?? He/She doesn't decide anything with this TA.
How many of you guys would have taken the GIA route if you had the money and were able?? Sure, I don't like the idea either but until PILOTS stop hiring PFT's, we have nobody but ourselves to blame!!

I have no problem with PFT or the GIA route. I have a problem with someone that takes that route, gets hired with 400 hours TT to fly a brand new CRJ, upgrades to captain when he meets the minimum qualifications, and the whole time is bashing the company that has given him that opportunity.

Instead of being thankful, grateful, and humble, he comes on this sight and repeatedly bashes Pinnacle Airlines. It is that attitude that sours many people on the PFT folks.

He has been bashing and complaining about the place every since he got there. If it is so bad, why not leave, instead of poisoning the good people that work there with his discontent. Once he leaves, he will learn that it is the same at the next place. Being happy is a choice.

 

[Lear70]

He has been bashing and complaining about the place every since he got there. If it is so bad, why not leave, instead of poisoning the good people that work there with his discontent. Once he leaves, he will learn that it is the same at the next place. Being happy is a choice.

In his defense, I have to say you're incorrect about that one statement there at the end.

I HATE PFT. Every pilot here knows this, and I fly with a LOT of them. We still have good trips together but I'm not surprised when I get a lot of unfriendly looks from FNG's in the crew room. I really don't give a rat's a*s if they like my stance or not, so don't read into this as pro-PFT in any way, shape, or form.

That said, PCL is absolutely, 100% correct in his assessment of the horrors of this company. Let me give you an example.

During Section 6 negotiations, ALPA National in Herndon will do an audit of the company's financial position, so that the union will know exactly how much we can realistically ask for. During this, they do an analysis of training and attrition, both voluntary and involuntary (terminations).

Last month ALPA did Pinnacle's since we may be getting close to working on Pay and R&I. She called up the negotiating committee and said, "These number can't be right. You're telling me your attrition is TRIPLE the next highest attrition carrier and that PCL fires more pilots every month than EVERY OTHER ALPA CARRIER COMBINED??!!"

The answer was Yes.

This is the most hostile work environment I've ever experienced. Pilots are bailing faster than we can train them. In 120-180 days this company is going to be unable to staff its aircraft at the rate we're losing pilots. If the mass exodus doesn't stop, we will replace HALF our seniority list in one year's time. No, that's not a misprint; we lost 50 pilots in February. 50 * 12 = 600. Just over 1,300 pilots on the seniority list.

Our training can't keep up with that level of attrition.

So lay off PCL for bashing this company. They deserve it.

/rant

 

[DeucesWild]

we will replace HALF our seniority list in one year's time.

You have been testifying to the pepole on this board that upgrade time is five years. It looks more like one year. Which is it?

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

You have been testifying to the pepole on this board that upgrade time is five years. It looks more like one year. Which is it?

If the folks fired/leaving are all FO's (bottom half of seniority) then the one year calculation is not valid.

 

[jetflier]

G U L P !!!!!!

 

[Fly4hire]

Nope, tune hasn't changed a bit. Sorry to disappoint you.
Somehow they will have to convince a regional pilot group to make allowances in their vacancy language. Without a flowthrough, they'll be dead in the water.

You don't own 70 seaters now, you would not without the NWA pilot TA. There would be no upgrade opportunities for those aircraft without that TA. This is NWA seniority list flying that we have allowed to be outsourced

If your MEC refuses to allow our pilots to fly those aircraft as we stipulated you will not see those aircraft and will not upgrade in them yourselves.

As far as flow up, I ask to what? It's going to be years before NWA hires again.

This is growth for you guys as well. Get too rightous as to what you deserve, and you'll see nothing.

As it is the bulk of these aircraft will probably end up at SJet to give NWA the flexibilty and avoid the hassle of which you predict. JP Morgan and other analysts already see this happening......

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Fly4hire, they will have to offer a flowthrough, otherwise there is no way they could staff this airline. Don't believe anything you read about an oversupply at the entry positions. Also if Sjet buys the E170 and mainline takes the E190 the cost of differences training vs initial, would make the flowthrough manadatory

 

[Lear70]

You have been testifying to the pepole on this board that upgrade time is five years. It looks more like one year. Which is it?

Things change, smartass... or didn't you realize our industry was dynamic?

The last time you heard me tell people 5 years was at the end of November / early December, when our attrition was 5-10 people a month. Guys got tired of being abused so they started putting out apps to a lot of places they normally wouldn't have considered, especially NetJets since they just got their kick-ass contract.

My buddy over at NetJets says they received over 100 apps from QUALIFIED PCL pilots in the last 90 days ALONE. AirTran has picked up their hiring, as has jetBlue (just got a call from a buddy who found out on Monday he's headed that way), and Southwest.

Add to that a LOT of 1st and 2nd year Gulfstream F/O's who didn't have the flight time to go to places like CoEx or Air Whiskey when they hired on here have built the time, gotten the interview, and they are leaving, too, to the tune of 15-20 a month.

Add to that, the company has started terminating more people than ever before. 13 terminations in the 3rd week of February alone, 25 for the month, and that's just pilots. F/A's and dispatchers are getting canned left and right, too.

Clear yet?

edit:

If the folks fired/leaving are all FO's (bottom half of seniority) then the one year calculation is not valid.

Sorry, didn't see your post earlier, or I would have addressed it.

12 of the 25 terminations were Captains, 2 of them were senior union MEC officials, one the Chairman of the Strike Preparedness committee. No, that's not hostile at all...

The people leaving are split pretty evenly between F/O's and Captains, but that balance is about to tip, as there are almost 30 Captains swimming in the FedEx pool I forgot to mention, too. With the MOAB coming out af FedEx, that number should increase, too, plus it's almost all Captains going to Netjets and one or two to Flexjet also.

It adds up quickly, this company is in for a RUDE AWAKENING come April / May.

 

[saabservant]

So much for brand scope, career progression for all redtail, etc.
It seems that since the nwa mec/neg. committee does not have the balls to keep the jobs on the property, they will use their regional pilots' careers as fodder.
The dc-9 pilots will slip to regional pay and conditions, those presently at the regional will see their careers placed into third class status behind nwa furloughs(never mind the integrity of a seniority list, so long as they can use it to their purpose), and we will expected to stand up, salute, and say "thank you" for the airplanes!
You can say that this is "your" flying, and these are "your" aircraft, but it only highlights the farce of the regionals as separate companies which function only as crew schedulers for outsourced pilots. What you forget is the seniority list, which is all we have to protect jobs and opportunity.

If you want to use our list to your (I mean the senior nwa pilots, who are throwing the dc-9 pilots overboard) benefit, you need to give career opportunity and validity in return. Otherwise, let management take away all our airplanes, we are ready to STFD anyway.

Jets-for-Jobs requires nwa seniority, or no deal. You do not have the right to access to our seniority list without something substantial in return. You can think we should simply be grateful for keeping the wonderful opportunity to toil for you on the d scale, but have fun flying with that 6-8 year regional FO who is pulling gear for you.

It seems difficult to remember that unity is our strength when there are guys on here saying "take it or leave it, fellow alpa brother, it's every mainline member for himself".

Fraternally,
saabservant

 

[Lear70]

You don't own 70 seaters now, you would not without the NWA pilot TA. There would be no upgrade opportunities for those aircraft without that TA. This is NWA seniority list flying that we have allowed to be outsourced

If your MEC refuses to allow our pilots to fly those aircraft as we stipulated you will not see those aircraft and will not upgrade in them yourselves.

That's fine, we never wanted them here. They SHOULD have stayed at mainline. We won't allow our own management team to dangle an "upgrade carrot", that ANOTHER PILOT GROUP would do the same is reprehensible.

As far as flow up, I ask to what? It's going to be years before NWA hires again.

Well, when half our new-hires were 18-22 years old at their date of hire, they can afford to wait 10 years and be 28-32 year old major airline pilots. If there's no flow-up / through, this deal is D.O.A. with the pilots before it even hits the floor for a vote.

This is growth for you guys as well. Get too rightous as to what you deserve, and you'll see nothing.

That's fine. STFD. It be RIGHTEOUS to shut this mufu DOWN, brother! You forget, at the wages this company pays, we can replace this income overnight and know we'll be back in a flying job in less than 90 days. WE DON'T CARE if they come here or not.

As it is the bulk of these aircraft will probably end up at SJet to give NWA the flexibilty and avoid the hassle of which you predict. JP Morgan and other analysts already see this happening......

That's fine, too. They'll have to hire off the street for this anyway even at SJet, I didn't see anything about retaining their Northwest seniority at SJet in the agreement, so everyone would start at 1st year wages AND seniority, so they'd upgrade pretty quickly, and have flow-up to mainliine eventually.

Good luck to you, I hope this gets voted down in short order but I'm resigned to the fact that it probably won't.

 

[DTW320]

That's fine, too. They'll have to hire off the street for this anyway even at SJet, I didn't see anything about retaining their Northwest seniority at SJet in the agreement, so everyone would start at 1st year wages AND seniority, so they'd upgrade pretty quickly, and have flow-up to mainliine eventually.

Seperate seniority list...NW furloughs going to SJet get 4year FO pay or 2 year CA pay on the SJet scale.

4. SJ’s configured with 51-76 seats which are flown at a separate wholly owned subsidiary/affiliate of NWA (called “SJet” for now”).
• No limitations on use.
• Must have a certificated seating capacity of 86 seats or less, with the exception that if the CRJ-900LR is operated the maximum seating certification level is 90 seats.
• Limited to 90 total aircraft, which is inclusive of the 55 aircraft limit for the Feeder Carrier flying.
• The 90 aircraft limit may be exceeded on a 1:1 basis with the “entering into service” of a 77-110 seat configured SJ to be flown at NWA mainline.
• Furloughed NWA pilots have the first right to the jobs at “SJet”, but will be on a separate seniority list.
• There would be a “flow up / flow down” between pilots at “SJet” and NWA, including new hire pilots at SJet and NWA. The flow up / down would be subject to metering limitations.
• NWA would be allowed to sell “SJet” after 10 77-110 seat configured Small Jets “are in active service” at NWA mainline.
• If the successor owner of “SJet” does not comply with the Flow Up / Down provisions, the number of 51-76 seat SJs being flown by Feeder Carriers would be required to be reduced to a baseline of 55 aircraft.
• The pay rates and work rules for the “SJet” flying are covered later.
• Note: the trigger for NWA to outsource up to 90 76 seat configured aircraft is dependent upon maintaining the flow up/down process.

 

[PCL_128]

If your MEC refuses to allow our pilots to fly those aircraft as we stipulated you will not see those aircraft and will not upgrade in them yourselves.

Sounds OK to me. I never wanted the dang things in the first place. The DC-9 replacement aircraft should be where the DC-9s have been for decades: AT FRICKIN' MAINLINE!!! I'm perfectly content with my 124 CRJs. I don't plan on being here long enough for the mainline pilots to get called back and free up those seats anyway, so they mean nothing to me.

I agree completely with Lear70, this TA is a big mistake. I hold out some small hope that you guys will vote this thing down, but I'm practically certain it will pass by a slim majority. I feel sorry for the DC-9 drivers that will get thrown under the bus. This is really a disgrace.

 

[goin' missed]

Incidently, in regards to the attrition at 9e, someone asked phil on the last earnings call regarding attrition. His response: it's not affecting us, there are too many pilots chasing too few jobs.

Give a listen if you have a chance. It gives some idea of mgt resolve to screw pilots.

 

[PCL_128]

Incidently, in regards to the attrition at 9e, someone asked phil on the last earnings call regarding attrition. His response: it's not affecting us, there are too many pilots chasing too few jobs.

Give a listen if you have a chance. It gives some idea of mgt resolve to screw pilots.

Hate to break it to uncle Phil, but it most certainly is affecting us. Our seniority list has actually been shrinking the last few months despite the two newhire classes a month. We have been unable to keep up with the crazy amount of attrition and terminations. We are looking at a staffing crisis within the next couple of months if things don't improve. Yes, that's right, get ready for the junior manning to come back just like last fall. Make sure you read over that Extensions LOA so you know your rights. It's gonna get ugly real soon.

 

[Lear70]

Seperate seniority list...NW furloughs going to SJet get 4year FO pay or 2 year CA pay on the SJet scale.

Excellent. Well, for the Northwest pilots anyway. Missed that part of the T.A., although I was well into my 3rd double Jack Daniels by the time I got that far.

I wonder how they'd set up monthly and vacation bidding? "Separate seniority list" - would that mean separate bid packs and such as well?

Would suck for the people they have to hire off the street to continually get restricted from the Captain's seat and then constantly be under all the Northwest guys for bidding schedules and vacations.

I'm sure SJet will get plenty of low-time people to hire in though who will just be happy to be flying the shiny new jet. Funny how people will always be happy to take these jobs.

PCL, don't get me started on PT and his spin machine.

 

[Yudso]

Why wouldn't all sjet ca slots be filled with mainline furloughs? Who would choose to go to sjet as an fo?

 

[PCL_128]

Why wouldn't all sjet ca slots be filled with mainline furloughs? Who would choose to go to sjet as an fo?

I'm sure you could find lots of FOs from other regional airlines that are looking at 5-8 year upgrades. If you're going to wait forever for an upgrade slot, you might as well get paid a few extra bucks an hour. They'll have no trouble filling the FO slots at SJet, I guarantee it.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

I'm sure you could find lots of FOs from other regional airlines that are looking at 5-8 year upgrades. If you're going to wait forever for an upgrade slot, you might as well get paid a few extra bucks an hour. They'll have no trouble filling the FO slots at SJet, I guarantee it.

Yes, SJet will get 10,000+ applications for the FO slots. Also if you look at the NWA pilot age groups, every pilot that is initially hired by Sjet will make the mainline in around 7 years regaurdless of whether or not they make captain.