NWA Sjet Rules and Pay.

[Detroitpilot22]

Maybe i should explain the reason i asked. It seems to me like not all of the nwa furloughed pilots will come back to this new airline, so that would leave room for off the street pilots, who would then be given a Nwa flow through in the perfect world. I didn't think NWA pilots would think to greatly of these street people, and I used the wrong term, "scab".

 

[IXLR8]

well

Now that NWA has purchased a new operating cert. is this what they will use for the smaller jets?......is this going to replace the dc-9's?.....

 

[N2264J]

Re: Majors NWA Sjet Rules and Pay

I don't know why but in the last year or so the term "scab" has been applied to just about every situation imaginable...usually by the regional folks. Drives me crazy.

When Comair started operating the CL-65 in 1993, some Delta pilots used the term "scabjet" on ramp/ground control frequency in Cincinnati.

When the RJDC filed suit against ALPA in 2001, some Delta pilots started using the term "scab" on the forums to descibe the litigants.

I'm not suggesting that "regional" pilots have never misused the term but I'm sure you would want to be as precise as possible when attributing the confusion to the regional folks, some of whom actually look up to "major" airline pilots as an example.

 

[pipejockey]

When Comair started operating the CL-65 in 1993, some Delta pilots used the term "scabjet" on ramp/ground control frequency in Cincinnati.

They had a lot of nerve! Wasn't this all started by the Delta pilots anyway when they allowed their regional carrier to operate jets?

 

[XJohXJ]

Sjet = NWA's B scale. B scale = all Major pilots' future A scale. Then, of course, in the words of Spongebob Jinglepants "the regionals will have to go even lower to maintain a meaningful pay differential with the Majors". Which, in turn will mean: The Majors will have to go lower still, because there are guys lining up for flying jobs for half their pay! Spiral on down, like toilet water.

 

[COpilot]

Ok, off the SCAB stuff.

The year of service pay at Sjet (NEWCO); If it is a true part of NWA, then why use 2nd yr payrate for a starting CA? Why not bring with him/her your actual years of service?

Someone asked if this will pass. Come on, this is going to pass right down the 51% mark, with the top half saving what they can for themselves. Is there really any doubt.

 

[FlyingFarmer]

If this passes, there really is no end to the toilet water downward spiral. Newco/Sjet, no matter what you call it, they'll be sold off/screwed just like Midatlantic. This is all about shrinking mainline, and farming out to the lowest bidder. Good Luck junior NW guys, you're about to be hosed by alpa and your senior brothers.

 

[737 Pylt]

When the RJDC filed suit against ALPA in 2001, some Delta pilots started using the term "scab" on the forums to descibe the litigants.

The difference between the rjdc and a scab is that at least a scab waits until you're out on strike to take/steal your job. You pukes are worse than scabs!
How's your quest for that mutli $million lawsuit coming junior?
737

 

[Einstein]

The difference between the rjdc and a scab is that at least a scab waits until you're out on strike to take/steal your job. You pukes are worse than scabs!
How's your quest for that mutli $million lawsuit coming junior?
737

You just can't handle the fact that your no longer the "Elite" of the industry and you think it is some poor guy flying an R.J. that is causing all of this "pain". Get over it AUNT BEA.

 

[737 Pylt]

You just can't handle the fact that your no longer the "Elite" of the industry and you think it is some poor guy flying an R.J. that is causing all of this "pain". Get over it AUNT BEA.

Lawman:
Go away sport....You are worse than that rash your sister gave me! Now piss off you little hemmoroid!
737

 

[sky fly]

Lawman:
Go away sport....You are worse than that rash your sister gave me! Now piss off you little hemmoroid!
737

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!! Do you ever do anything other than whine? Quit blaming others for the fact that your company is a dying pile of monkey dung.

 

[737 Pylt]

WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!! Do you ever do anything other than whine? Quit blaming others for the fact that your company is a dying pile of monkey dung.

Do you ever stop throwing stones from behind your keyboard?? Let me know when you want to talk about your problem!
737

 

[sky fly]

Do you ever stop throwing stones from behind your keyboard?? Let me know when you want to talk about your problem!
737

There you go again. WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHYou must be one of the biggest wusses i know 737 crybaby, or acording to Einstien AUNT BEA Do you want to know what my problem is? it's you. And i am sure many people will agree with me on this.

 

[pipejockey]

737 Pylt, I am a friend of the Legacy carrier, I am not your enemy. But please answer my question....When the RJ came to be in 1993, wouldn't you guys have had the power at that time to retain that aircraft for your selves? Then we all could be working for mainline today. Sure many of us would be flying the RJ but we would slowly move up the ranks to the big iron in due time depending on when we were hired. You guys felt you were too good for the RJ and gave it up right? Now look, tons of what should be YOUR flying is gone forever. Am I wrong? If so school me.

 

[Einstein]

737 Pylt, I am a friend of the Legacy carrier, I am not your enemy. But please answer my question....When the RJ came to be in 1993, wouldn't you guys have had the power at that time to retain that aircraft for your selves? Then we all could be working for mainline today. Sure many of us would be flying the RJ but we would slowly move up the ranks to the big iron in due time depending on when we were hired. You guys felt you were too good for the RJ and gave it up right? Now look, tons of what should be YOUR flying is gone forever. Am I wrong? If so school me.

Pipejockey: This clown does nothing but complain and try to blame others for his own miserable existance. They gave it up and now have nothing to fall back on and somehow it is the fault of others and not their own and if you disagree, this idiot goes haywire. He's a real winner and chapter 11 fits him well.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Payrates are becoming less and less because airlines are selling seats below the actual operating cost of the airlines. If the airlines weren't losing money this career would not be sliding. There is no way to prevent the slide if the airlines don't start selling tickets at higher prices.

Don't complain about the raising prices will kill off travelers, if the tickets are selling for less than the operating costs, it wouldn't matter if every person in the world flew everyday. The bottom line is that in this industry, there is no way to prevent someone from coming in and undercutting you, if anything the regionals prevent some of this from happening. This industry changes so fast and yet the cost of change is unlike any other industry.

For an airline to return to profitability, it must restructure its cost to the lowest profitable airline, I.E. SWA/JetBlue. As long as there is a free market, the airline pilot profession will continue to slide even if regional pilots did not exist. Because a legacy has a different business model than an LCC, it could not possibly compete and is an easy target. A LCC's mission is simple, form a company that has the lowest costs possible in a specific market and target that market share.

If there is anyone to blame, it is the capitalist system and our government. The consumer will always shop for the lowest price, it's vital that the lowest price turns a profit. The legacies, have no restructured their costs to that of the LCC's, it's now anybody's game.

 

[pipejockey]

The legacies will never be able to compete with the likes of an SWA. As you say it is a different business model. SWA will never be able to take you from a small regional airport to another small regional airport, say Bangor Maine to Wilkes Barre Scranton, but that is the airline they must match fares with. How can this be successful? All I can say is I am positive travelers would not abandon air travel if prices were raised to the point of profitability for the Majors. It's not being done though. Why? Well the mindset seems to be to extract every penny from labor as possible. If profits return, no more concessions would occur. I sometimes think management doesn't want to show a profit, how silly of me right?

I mean if United could earn 1 billion dollars in profit during 99 or 2000, I just can't seem to fathom how with all the paycuts and cost savings they can't at least earn 250 million even with the low fares. I have been scratching my head since 2001. I used United to make my point but the same can be said for just about every major except UsAir who I think couldn't even find success in the late 90s.

Just look at the atrocious and outrageous home prices people are paying. And they keep buying and buying and buying and buying................you get the picture. An extra 50 bucks or so for a roundtrip is not going to be a factor.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Well, today SWA raised fares $10 and every carrier followed suit. So SWA is currently controling the market on fares. All management at NWA did was take their cost structure and match it to that of a LCC. The problem is, NWA isn't an LCC and to match costs it had to cut labor and outsource; this is the only way it can match an LCC.

Am I the only one who thinks that LCC's attacking the leagacies will eventually drive themselves out of business. It's only a matter of time before the legacy carriers move the regionals into LCC market share. What if someone can go lower than the regionals?

 

[Dizel8]

. It's only a matter of time before the legacy carriers move the regionals into LCC market share.

The CASM of an RJ is way above that of a 737, 717 or A-320, hence it would be an even better moneylosing proposition.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

The CASM of an RJ is way above that of a 737, 717 or A-320, hence it would be an even better moneylosing proposition.

The company, not the jet. The regional companies are getting bigger jets.

 

[737 Pylt]

737 Pylt, I am a friend of the Legacy carrier, I am not your enemy. But please answer my question....

Contrary to popular belief, I have NO beef with the rj/rj guys-gals. My beef is with the rjdc! I firmly believe the rj has its place, but our mismanagement has misused it and is now using it as a carrot to dangle infront of the feeder carriers, and our own pilot group!

When the RJ came to be in 1993, wouldn't you guys have had the power at that time to retain that aircraft for your selves?

Again, contrary to what the rjdc pukes might tell you, you are 110% correct. ALPA/DALPA dropped the ball big time! Had these jets been on mainline property, we would all have had jobs, but at the time (I wasn't here in 1993, I came 4 years later) DALPA thought it was "above them" to fly it. You're not gonna get any argument from me here!

Then we all could be working for mainline today. Sure many of us would be flying the RJ but we would slowly move up the ranks to the big iron in due time depending on when we were hired. You guys felt you were too good for the RJ and gave it up right? Now look, tons of what should be YOUR flying is gone forever. Am I wrong? If so school me.

NO, you're right! I agree with you. The problem that ALPA has is that its negotiating with several different MEC's...All of which not only have different agendas, but are in deep competition with each other. Another problem the DCI folks don't understand is that all Delta flying is subject to the Delta pilots' PWA! It has created pandora's box, and the rjdc pukes will tell you that is what their lawsuit is about! If you look at the origional lawsuit, that was all about GREED! That is my problem. They (the rjdc leadership) was on the premise that they were all going to be $$millionaires and 777 captains! We are taking it from all ends and they are just adding another distraction that we don't need! Their frivilous lawsuit has had 9 out of 10 claims thrown out, and the only claim is the DFR, which, I might add might just have merit, but their group is full of lazy greedy pilots who's whole agenda was to bankrupt our union.
I hope that helps. I am no enemy of the rj, just the rjdc.
737
and einstein, better known as chuck/lawman....bite me loser, you are still a coward hiding behind a keyboard! My airline may be bankrupt, but your brain is bankrupt so is your zipper! Get a life you loser!

 

[Einstein]

and einstein, better known as chuck/lawman....bite me loser, you are still a coward hiding behind a keyboard! My airline may be bankrupt, but your brain is bankrupt so is your zipper! Get a life you loser![/quote]

I may be wrong, but isn't this flame baiting? HMMM, that's three in a row.

 

[General Lee]

The company, not the jet. The regional companies are getting bigger jets.

WRONG. Did Chatauqua get the E190s? Nope. Mesa already had CR9s. Northwest's Sjet will have mainline people flying their E190s or whatever. I know I will never vote for larger RJs at DCI, and I can bet more than 51% won't vote for it either at DL. That means NO. We don't have to lean towards trying to save our pensions like NW, since ours will be GONE. We know that. So, we can focus on other things, like protecting SCOPE.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[737 Pylt]

and einstein, better known as chuck/lawman....bite me loser, you are still a coward hiding behind a keyboard! My airline may be bankrupt, but your brain is bankrupt so is your zipper! Get a life you loser!

I may be wrong, but isn't this flame baiting? HMMM, that's three in a row.[/quote]

Well well, if it isn't my little stalker!
Not as much as this:

Pipejockey: This clown does nothing but complain and try to blame others for his own miserable existance. They gave it up and now have nothing to fall back on and somehow it is the fault of others and not their own and if you disagree, this idiot goes haywire. He's a real winner and chapter 11 fits him well.

Let me ask you this loser? What is your beef with DL/Air Tran? Couldn't get hired?
Get lost once and for all!
737

 

[regionaltard]

The difference between the rjdc and a scab is that at least a scab waits until you're out on strike to take/steal your job. You pukes are worse than scabs!
How's your quest for that mutli $million lawsuit coming junior?
737

I've got a great idea for a sequel to "The Silence of the Lambs." It's going to be called "The Braying of the Jackasses" and there's going to be a scene in it with you and the General locked behind glass in a dank, Medieval mental hospital with nothing in your cells but a computer terminal to pound out your rants on, your Delta uniforms, and a full-length mirror to preen in.

I guess that would make it a documentary, wouldn't it?

 

[Einstein]

I've got a great idea for a sequel to "The Silence of the Lambs." It's going to be called "The Braying of the Jackasses" and there's going to be a scene in it with you and the General locked behind glass in a dank, Medieval mental hospital with nothing in your cells but a computer terminal to pound out your rants on, your Delta uniforms, and a full-length mirror to preen in.

I guess that would make it a documentary, wouldn't it?

Hey, no, disregard.

 

[AimPoint]

Finally I can smile

Having the joy of being furloughed twice….waiting 20 years for my chance to fly Majors….almost getting hit on my drive in this am for work at McDonald land….you guys made me smile…no you made me laugh…. reading this “disagreement”. Really thanks. I know it isnt a laughing matter...trust me I feel the pain daily. I don’t know any more who is wrong or right (RJ…ALPA…Mainline….Old guys) I just want to feed my family. This industry is brutal and we NEED to work together…period.

I still was able to laugh so I guess somehow I am finding humor in all this.

 

[Bosley]

HEEEE-HAWWWW. Just to let you know, we at Delta don't claim either of these two.

Pretty ironic when you don't even work for Delta!

 

[accinelli]

The legacies will never be able to compete with the likes of an SWA. As you say it is a different business model. SWA will never be able to take you from a small regional airport to another small regional airport, say Bangor Maine to Wilkes Barre Scranton, but that is the airline they must match fares with. How can this be successful? All I can say is I am positive travelers would not abandon air travel if prices were raised to the point of profitability for the Majors. It's not being done though. Why? Well the mindset seems to be to extract every penny from labor as possible. If profits return, no more concessions would occur. I sometimes think management doesn't want to show a profit, how silly of me right?

I mean if United could earn 1 billion dollars in profit during 99 or 2000, I just can't seem to fathom how with all the paycuts and cost savings they can't at least earn 250 million even with the low fares. I have been scratching my head since 2001. I used United to make my point but the same can be said for just about every major except UsAir who I think couldn't even find success in the late 90s.

Just look at the atrocious and outrageous home prices people are paying. And they keep buying and buying and buying and buying................you get the picture. An extra 50 bucks or so for a roundtrip is not going to be a factor.

1. Do a google search and read up on Price Elasticity of Demand.
2. The legacies are NOT doing anyone a favor by flying from one small airport
to another or by flying money losing routes just to keep market share.
3. The product at the legacies sucks-- especially the attitude of the agents and Flight attendants. Try flying First/Business on NWA/UAL/DAL. Other than the larger seats -- you'll get far better service on Southwest or Jetblue at 1/8th the price. This could be something as simple as asking for a glass of water!

 

[pipejockey]

Price elasticity of demand, capitalism, market forces, supply and demand....BLAH BLAH BLAAAH!!!

Refer to my statement about home prices. Why isn't "price elasticity of demand" coming in to play there? The prices are astronomical and what does the consumer do? They say oh well if thats what we have to pay so be it!! I have said it once and I'll say it a thousand times...IF YOU RAISE PRICES THEY WILL STILL COME!!