NWA looking at E-jets

[dondk]

DC-9's and NWA..

Well there are baby 9's are slated for next summer to be finally retired. I do believe there are only 8 DC-9-10 remaining in the fleet. Then after that the DC-9-14 ( a variation of the -10 with slats) "may" go a year or two after that ( another handul at best).

Now.. the DC-9 fleet has some that are approaching a heavy D check that will cost some serious cash. They have a bunch of 9's in the desert though that they will bring back to service to offset the heavy D's for the time being.

As far as I know or have heard... other than the 8 baby 9's... no others are slated for "complete" retirement other than maybe a few DC-10's...

 

[cl-65link]

The DC-9 has the lowest CASM of any aircraft in the NW fleet. That's why they are still around.

 

[320AV8R]

DC-9's and NWA..

Then after that the DC-9-14 ( a variation of the -10 with slats) "may" go a year or two after that ( another handul at best).

Dondk-

It's amazing the amount of inaccurate information you guys can dig up about an airline you don't work for.

NWA has DC-9 -10s, -30s, -40s, and -50s. There are no -14s, only -10s without slats. They may or may not be retired by the end of the year.

Also- NWA is looking at 70 seat jets.....like everybody else. NWA mainline pilots own all flying over 55 seats. Will NWA get 70 seat jets ? Will NWA mainline pilots fly them ? Who knows.

 

[dondk]

Dondk-

It's amazing the amount of inaccurate information you guys can dig up about an airline you don't work for.

NWA has DC-9 -10s, -30s, -40s, and -50s. There are no -14s, only -10s without slats. They may or may not be retired by the end of the year.

Also- NWA is looking at 70 seat jets.....like everybody else. NWA mainline pilots own all flying over 55 seats. Will NWA get 70 seat jets ? Will NWA mainline pilots fly them ? Who knows.

I am only repeating what I have heard from DC-9 drivers.. I assume they would be in the "know" and the date I heard for the retirement they have said over and over is by the summer or '05.
As for the comment on -14.. I thought it was "odd" too.. but they do exist.. don't ask me what the difference is between a -10 and a -14...


N-Number N8905E
Aircraft Serial Number : 45746
Aircraft Manufacturer : DOUGLAS
model : DC-9-14
Engine Manufacturer : P&W
Model : JT8D-1
Aircraft Year : 1966
Owner Name : NORTHWEST AIRLINES INC.
Owner Address : 5101 NORTHWEST DRIVE C7-8960
ST. PAUL, MN, 55111
Type of Owner : Corporation
Registration Date : 23-Dec-1986
Airworthiness Certificate Type : Standard
Approved Operations : Transport

 

[NuGuy]

Dondk-

It's amazing the amount of inaccurate information you guys can dig up about an airline you don't work for.

Too true 320...since NWA hardly ever makes the news as often as AA, UA, US and the others, the speculation runs rampant.

Anyway, to set the matter straight, there are 8 DC-9 10 series on the property now, 7 -14s and a lone -15. The only difference between the two is that the -15 has ventral stairs while the -14s don't. Same JT8D-7Bs and they all hold 78 seats. No slats on any of them. Makes them "sporty".

The are AC retirements for this year and '05. They include 1 747 classic, 5 DC-10-30's and 7 DC-9-30s. This is somewhat made up by the delivery of 7 A330-200s, 3 A330-300s and 4 A319s.

Dondk was sorta kinda correct...the reason that a few of the -30s are being retired is due to the expense of the "aft bulkhead mod". There is a fierce AD on the DC-9 with regards to the aft pressure bulkhead when it reaches 100,000 cycles. You basically have to rebuild the entire back end of the aircraft, and the cost is out of line with the value of the airplane.

OTOH, there are lots of the -30s that were purchased from European operators, and are quite low cycle (comparatively speaking).

320 is correct...mainline dudes own 55 and above, and there is zero desire amongst the pilot group see it change, and a tremendous resolve to see it stay. So it comes down to either the mainline flying 55+, or no one does. Avros excepted, of course, but that is specific to those AC.

Nu

 

[320AV8R]

Dondk-

I stand....errrr...sit corrected.....sort of.

The thing that threw me off was the slats. I flew all versions of the -9 for five years....the -10s did not have slats. All the aircraft manuals state -10, -30, -40, -50. Nothing about -14s. I guess we could both be veiwed as being "technically correct".

 

[dondk]

320AV8R...

No prob... the -14's had me wondering too, heck I never knew about a -15, although I did see that one with the stairs in DTW not too long back, now I know what it is!
NuGuy...

I heard about a AD that was $$$$, then heard about the D check... Figured the D was the culprit as there could not be too many AD's that NWA had not completed yet.. Jeez, they've had the -9's for what.. about 25 years or more now?

NWA does have a considerable "fleet" in the desert? Is that just crew bus rumor mill or does it actually exist?

Is that lone 747-200 going to the desert or over to the freighter fleet.. Had a 747 driver in front a week ago that was stating the freighter fleet is looking at 5 more to the ranks in a year or so?

Finally as for the Airlink's ever seeing anything over 55 (except Avro's)... I don't plan on it in my career at an airlink. Personally, I have no problem with mainline getting 70's.. I just hope for a rate that will one day let the Airlinks raise the bar by using mainline 70's or better as an example.

There are plenty of cities out there that need more than an RJ and less than a 9-30.. I'd rather see the flying stay in the family than be taken by someone else who will fly it for less.

 

[fokkerjet]

The smallest DC-9 with slats was the 20 series (-10 series fuselage with -30 series wing), I believed only flown by Valujet and Spirit in the US. The DC 9 series offered by Douglas started with the -11, which were converted over to either the -14 or -15 series. The next series offered was the -21, the -31, -32, -33 and -34 (plus F, CF, MC, RC versions) C-9A, C-9B and VC-9C, the -41 and then -51. Then you had the -81, -82, -83 and -87 followed by the MD88 and MD90-30. The last would have been the MD95 but it's now the B717-200 series.

But what do I know

 

[320AV8R]

320AV8R...

Jeez, they've had the -9's for what.. about 25 years or more now?

Some are "old", and some were bought in 1995, 1996 from European carriers.


NWA does have a considerable "fleet" in the desert? Is that just crew bus rumor mill or does it actually exist?

There are only a few aircraft left in the desert. All aircraft will be back on line shortly.


Had a 747 driver in front a week ago that was stating the freighter fleet is looking at 5 more to the ranks in a year or so?

Definitely two...maybe more, depending on what's available.

 

[C77MD80]

I can just imagine Lowercur sitting at his computer, reading all the doom and gloom hitting pilots left and right. He’s got his thong pulled down to his ankles, draped around his black socks pulled up to his knees, T-shirt on, New Kids on the block on one side, EMB on the other. He’s got Aviation Daily on one screen, Flight Info on another and a centerfold of the EMB190 in the backdrop. There he goes, reaching for another scoop of Vaseline which sits next to the computer in a one gallon jar. Just imagine if he had a microphone sitting on top of the screen and we all could tune into his pathetic little world, this is what you would hear;



“Oh yea…… Jet Blue pilots taking it up the …….yea……86 an hour.. ooh I love it….. look at my stock price…. Move baby move……NWA looking at EMB’s….sweet… oh yea…. Stick it to them at 90 bucks an hour…… ooh yah…. My message on flightinfo….. how can I get these pilots to believe they are all worthless?…keep posting.......AA pilots gonna be next....caving in…. oh yea… the big three… I’m close….”



Muffled



From far away, possibly downstairs…



“Lowecur, mommy’s home, come downstairs, I brought another crewmeal from work; the pilot’s only ate half of it!”



“.ok Mom, I’m……coming………………”


muffled.... zip... click, click

“what kind of airplane did you clean today mommy?”

 

[lowecur]

I can just imagine Lowecur sitting at his computer, reading all the doom and gloom hitting pilots left and right. Hey, it beats working for a living. He’s got his thong pulled straight up his muscled arz, biceps bulging and shirtless, 190 tatooed just above his arz, and blue Oakley's on. What a sight! He’s got Aviation Daily on one screen, Flight Info on another and a centerfold of the EMB190 in the backdrop. There he goes, reaching for another scoop of icecream which sits next to the computer in a one gallon jar. Just imagine if he had a microphone sitting on top of the screen and we all could tune into his soothing little world, this is what you would hear;



"Roxanne, you don't have to put on your redlight. Rooooxanne, you don't have to put on your redlight."



Muffled



From far away, possibly downstairs…



Doorbell......Mailman....just dropped off my monthly investment statement.....Time to head to the bank.

.....

 

[balls deep340]

70 seaters

Regarding NWA pilots flying 70 seaters.


How do they plan to do that economically? Market dictates - so far mainline pay rates are too restrictive when considering other employees that are not pilots. ie:mechanics, FA, cleaners, gater agents and bag smashers.

Therefore NWA with no 70 seaters will not be able to bring more business to the hub or begin new and profitable point to point service. Without this new growth NWA will remain stagnant.

In other words you protect your jobs so much that you screw your company and in turn screw yourselves. How does this make sense. AWA uses another company to fly 90 seaters and now they have lots of growth at mainline, and are hiring.

What I think will happen is that the MEC isn't stupid and they will release scope but only with a J4J provison. Hopefully the Airlinks let you have a J4J deal as long as you come in at the bottom of the seniority list.

 

[320AV8R]

I can just imagine Lowercur sitting at his computer, reading all the doom and gloom hitting pilots left and right. He’s got his thong pulled down to his ankles, draped around his black socks pulled up to his knees, T-shirt on, New Kids on the block on one side, EMB on the other. He’s got Aviation Daily on one screen, Flight Info on another and a centerfold of the EMB190 in the backdrop. There he goes, reaching for another scoop of Vaseline which sits next to the computer in a one gallon jar. Just imagine if he had a microphone sitting on top of the screen and we all could tune into his pathetic little world, this is what you would hear;



“Oh yea…… Jet Blue pilots taking it up the …….yea……86 an hour.. ooh I love it….. look at my stock price…. Move baby move……NWA looking at EMB’s….sweet… oh yea…. Stick it to them at 90 bucks an hour…… ooh yah…. My message on flightinfo….. how can I get these pilots to believe they are all worthless?…keep posting.......AA pilots gonna be next....caving in…. oh yea… the big three… I’m close….”



Muffled



From far away, possibly downstairs…



“Lowecur, mommy’s home, come downstairs, I brought another crewmeal from work; the pilot’s only ate half of it!”



“.ok Mom, I’m……coming………………”


muffled.... zip... click, click

“what kind of airplane did you clean today mommy?”

C77MD80-

You're hilarious!!!!!

320AV8R

 

[Beerme]

Regarding NWA pilots flying 70 seaters.


How do they plan to do that economically? Market dictates - so far mainline pay rates are too restrictive when considering other employees that are not pilots. ie:mechanics, FA, cleaners, gater agents and bag smashers.

Who says we have to have mainline mechanics, cleaners, gate agents , etc...Mainline agents already work both mainline AND Airlink flights. Could be the other way around...Airlink mechanics, who are already trained on CRJ's work on all CRJ's, Airlink gate agents work both flights, cleaners clean both aircraft, etc. Whatever you can negotiate.

Therefore NWA with no 70 seaters will not be able to bring more business to the hub or begin new and profitable point to point service. Without this new growth NWA will remain stagnant.

WRONG! If mainline gives in to releasing the 70 seaters, we will remain stagnant...with them, we have growth.


In other words you protect your jobs so much that you screw your company and in turn screw yourselves. How does this make sense. AWA uses another company to fly 90 seaters and now they have lots of growth at mainline, and are hiring.

Lots of growth at mainline...I think that's stretching it. Just think how much more growth they'd have in AWA kept 90 seaters on their property!

What I think will happen is that the MEC isn't stupid and they will release scope but only with a J4J provison. Hopefully the Airlinks let you have a J4J deal as long as you come in at the bottom of the seniority list.

Your right, our MEC isn't stupid, but we'll never release scope! NEVER! And we won't need a J4J provision because the aircraft will be on OUR property. Your bottom of seniority list comment shows why your still driving a Saab.

 

[balls deep340]

Your right, our MEC isn't stupid, but we'll never release scope! NEVER! And we won't need a J4J provision because the aircraft will be on OUR property. Your bottom of seniority list comment shows why your still driving a Saab.

Spoken like a true NWA burnout. The reason I still dive a saab is because I am 27 years old. You need to look at the bigger picture. If you get those planes your employees have certain rights to work on them. For instance, Mechanics have the rights to work on them only 38% of maint. can be farmed out. Do you think with all the mechanics on the streets they will agree to farm out that maint. to the regionals. A 5 year mechanic makes 35/hr.

The market has spoken regionals alone can fly 70 seaters not high labor at mainline. I hate to break this to you but your MGMT are actually the ones that call the shots and in the end they will win.

If you do fly 70 seaters it is because you will work for mesa wages and sell out the rest of your non furlough pilots with big time pay cuts.

The J4J is the only realistic option unfortunatley. That is why you offered 9E and XJ a flow agreement that is probably worthless.

 

[Beerme]

Spoken like a true NWA burnout.

Whatever that means???

If you get those planes your employees have certain rights to work on them. For instance, Mechanics have the rights to work on them only 38% of maint. can be farmed out. Do you think with all the mechanics on the streets they will agree to farm out that maint. to the regionals.

I'm not negotiating for the mechanics...they have to take care of themselves.

The market has spoken regionals alone can fly 70 seaters not high labor at mainline.

I just read the ALPA proposal to mgt, and it spells out how we can competitively operate these acft. I'd tell you how, but nah, I'd rather leave you in the dark and let you find out after the fact.


I hate to break this to you but your MGMT are actually the ones that call the shots and in the end they will win.

They can't call any shots concerning 70 seaters because we ALREADY OWN 'EM...we paid for the scope in our '98 contract. So if mgt wants 'em , they'll have to bargain for 'em...with us flying them. Simple enough for you to understand?

If you do fly 70 seaters it is because you will work for mesa wages and sell out the rest of your non furlough pilots with big time pay cuts.

All the furloughed guys I've talked with would be happy to get back in the saddle flying a 70 seater at industry wages. Those that found a higher paying job, or just don't want to fly it, can always by-pass recall.

The J4J is the only realistic option unfortunatley. That is why you offered 9E and XJ a flow agreement that is probably worthless.

You can guess about the flow thru, I haven't seen it. You always have the option to stay on your Saab.

 

[General Lee]

This is starting to sound a lot like the Delta vs Comair/ASA posts.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[balls deep340]

Beerme I guess what I am trying to say is that I just don't see it making economical sense for Mainline to fly Crjs. Insulting me by talking about my aircraft is like talking about a mans woman. Have you no shame. Thats why I called you a burnout and true to form you were clueless as to why.

I guess my MBA may be worthless and hope you are correct and you will be flying those crjs but, I just saw the proposal that the MEC wants a "Flow up" for XJ and I assumed the worst as in they want J4J. Why else would your MEC give up extensive negotiating captial to give us a flow up? Maybe cause DW is sick of the whip sawing or out the goodness of your heart you want us to have a shot at NWA.

Well the majority of us don't want to work for NWA anyway so thats fine waste all your negotiations prowess to get us a flow up but don't expect anything in return.

As for me I'm off to AirTran. No more red tails, no more grumpy gate agents, etc.

peace