NWA Liquidation

[ACAFool]

I know a guy with a wife and kid at NWA. I wish them the best, but the feeling there is that this is their swan song. At least it'll will open more revenue and employment opportunities at the remaining succuessful airlines.

Yea, and the fat lady was singing at USAirways and UA not too long ago, and they are still here. There are a lot of people out there just drooling at the idea that one of these airlines will sink. I personally doubt this is any different than when so many people on this board posted "put a fork in UA, they're done" two years ago. In another post on here right now people are talking about Delta striking and not surviving that. I think this is just some kind of sick wishful thinking.

 

[Ty Webb]

I will admit, I was one of those who thought UAL was toast. Who would have thought they could spend three and a half years operating under Chapter 11? After that, all bets are off.

 

[Donsa320]

I thought the roberts award was going away after the end of the year? Doesn't this get rid of the red vs green seniority and make it purely a date of hire (at original airline) seniority based list. Being from the original Northwest will no longer have anything to do with seniority.

The Robert's award never did change anybody's seniority date. It did set quotas as to how many from each group would get certain bid awards in the various airplanes. It does run out in 2006, 20 years after the merger and most of us who were affected by it have retired. I got a 747-400 bid in 1990 and I was a Republic "puke", as the Red Book negotiaters referred to us as. Additionally, the top senioity number ended up with a Green Book pilot.
He who laughs last, laughs best.

DC

 

[NuGuy]

They can be sold.

In the very same manner that Pan Am sold their routes to UAL. They are an asset that can leveraged and liquidated.

Not true. Most of NWA's route authority for the pacific is different than PanAm's or UALs. Since NWA has significant 5th freedom rights out of NRT, the Japanese government is the major signatory with NWA, not the US Government (in fact, all NWA transactions/accounting in Japan are in yen, not dollars). The routes cannot be transferred from the NWA "corporate entity". If NWA folds, the routes vanish. These routes are intertwined very closely with the cargo rights, which is why you won't see a sell off of those, either. You are better off thinking of NWA's pacific routes as being awarded to a Japanese domestic carrier, and NWA's NRT operations as a Japanese "national" airline.

There are SOME standard routes that were awarded via standard practice which could be sold, but they are in the minority.

Nu

 

[Donsa320]

Not true. Most of NWA's route authority for the pacific is different than PanAm's or UALs. Since NWA has significant 5th freedom rights out of NRT, the Japanese government is the major signatory with NWA, not the US Government (in fact, all NWA transactions/accounting in Japan are in yen, not dollars). The routes cannot be transferred from the NWA "corporate entity". If NWA folds, the routes vanish. These routes are intertwined very closely with the cargo rights, which is why you won't see a sell off of those, either. You are better off thinking of NWA's pacific routes as being awarded to a Japanese domestic carrier, and NWA's NRT operations as a Japanese "national" airline.

There are SOME standard routes that were awarded via standard practice which could be sold, but they are in the minority.

Nu

Well said!

DC

 

[Mugs]

I will admit, I was one of those who thought UAL was toast. Who would have thought they could spend three and a half years operating under Chapter 11? After that, all bets are off.

No kidding. I was looking forward to being a $30K a year Airbus F/O at UA-2 by now -- just in time for your negotiations with Uncle Joe. If not that, I would have just continued stacking mulch at your favorite home improvement store.

 

[G4G5]

Not true. Most of NWA's route authority for the pacific is different than PanAm's or UALs. Since NWA has significant 5th freedom rights out of NRT, the Japanese government is the major signatory with NWA, not the US Government (in fact, all NWA transactions/accounting in Japan are in yen, not dollars). The routes cannot be transferred from the NWA "corporate entity". These routes are intertwined very closely with the cargo rights, which is why you won't see a sell off of those, either. You are better off thinkingThe routes cannot be transferred from the NWA "corporate entity". If NWA folds, the routes vanish of NWA's pacific routes as being awarded to a Japanese domestic carrier, and NWA's NRT operations as a Japanese "national" airline.

There are SOME standard routes that were awarded via standard practice which could be sold, but they are in the minority.

Nu

The 5th freedom rights that you refer to were established in the US Japan Bi Lateral agreement of 1952. You are wrong. NWA received the EXACT same rights as Pan Am. Pan Am's rights have been transfered and acknowledged by the Japanese government to UAL.

Here is the complete history:
http://ntl.bts.gov/lib/7000/7500/7580/jatww3-2matthews.pdf

Pay close attention to page 14:

United also was a winner. Besides securing an important alliance partner in

​

ANA, United also had won unlimited Third and Fourth Freedoms, and was assured of new Fifth-Freedom rights. In the end, United could use its established position in Japan to pursue any level of realistic growth that it might entertain.

UAL has the exact same rights in Japan as NWA has. No where does the article mention that NWA received anything different then what Pan Am (or now UAL) has received. History has shown that these rights can be transfered. Like I said before, the NWA routes can be sold or transfered just like the Pan Am routes were.

The 1952 treaty is very clear about establishing TWO carriers in and out of Japan, thats what they get for WWII. Nowhere does it mention (and I would love to see it in writing) that:"The routes cannot be transferred from the NWA "corporate entity". ". The US government would have a very different take on what your opinion is, considering that the treaty is still valid I highly doubt that the US would allow that to just "vanish" as you suggest.

These 5th freedom rights have been transfered on a variety of occasions. Pan Am had rights beyond Berlin. For many years they operated a 727 base out of Berlin. Those rights were transfered to Delta. The German government told Delta to either use the rights or lose them . Delta forfeited the rights.

The samething happened with TWA and AA. TWA had a 727 base and 5th freedom beyond rights out of Paris. Those rights now belong to AA.


Sorry about the font size, I am not trying to be a wise guy, I just can't figure out how to make it smaller.

 

[AA717driver]

TWA and PAA had 5th Freedom rights out of EVERYWHERE in Europe.

If you don't want to believe your 5th Freedom's can go away, then don't believe it. I thought the same when I got hired at TWA in '88. Oops! Do you want me to tell you how it feels when what you believed so fervently turns out to be wrong? Or do you just want to experience the 'warm-fuzzies' for yourself?

Personally, unless the management at NWA wants to liquidate, I don't believe any Pacific routes will be sold. If UAL didn't sell them to generate cash, I don't believe NWA will do so either.

Please just learn from history so you won't be blindsided if the worst case does happen. TC

 

[G4G5]

5th freedom rights in Asia were a by product of a post WWII negotiations. In todays current environment you could never achieve the same rights. The thought of extending 5th freedom rights to a US carrier would now require extending the same 5th freedom rights to the home flag carrier of another nation. According to the 1952 treaty the US has right for two carriers to have 5th freedom rights in Japan. Inturn JAL only received 5th freedom rights out of LAX to Brazil. Try to negotiate that today.

Think globally and what negotiations are involved. The US is not going to simply give that up just because NWA can't pay their bills.

 

[CRJDog]

"What's the number of that truck-driving school? Truckmaster is it? I am gonna need that..."