NWA hires FLYi EX Management CP, DOM, CI, DOS for Compass

[Beach Bum]

St. Paul Pioneer Press article

by Joshua Freed, Associated Press 3/30/06

"Northwest relies more on regional flying than many other airlines because of its network of small Midwestern cities.

Northwest regional flights are currently handled by Mesaba Airlines and Pinnacle Airlines. Northwest has asked for bids for that flying, and has not disclosed the results. Even with Compass Airlines, Northwest may need another regional carrier because of limits on regional flying in its contract with pilots."

This article makes it sound like NWA wants to add yet another regional airline, after they get Compass launched. In time this airline will be just a network of regional carriers flying under the NWA logo. Eventually, will all NWA pilots will be working for regional wages/rules?

 

[Occam's Razor]

Well, I DO have a vote, and it's NO (not just no, but HELL NO), so I just cancelled you out, and so no one has to convince you of anything.

C'mon...can't you at least toss in a "neener neener neener!" to make it even MORE immature?

The cool part is we all have a vote and all votes count the same.

The Sjet work rules are an abortion, when it is all said and done the DC-9 pilots will take over a %50 cut in pay, not to mention the worst workrules of any regional, let alone major, while your widebody a$$ coasts on with crew meals and luxury hotels.

Um...I'm on the A320. (Work on a better theory)

The "worst rules in the industry"? Post that in the Regional section as an interrogative and see how it stacks up. Oh...and here's another kicker: If you are flying for NWA right now, you won't be at Compass.

What goes around comes around...just remember that.

I promise!

 

[TurboAWD]

1) Voting no does not have to mean a strike or imposed work rules (there is no reason they can't come back to the table)

2) What is wrong with this contract is the scope. If you are in the top third of the list at NW, I suppose you don't care, but just know that you are screwing every pilot to come after you in this career. Good for you though, you got yours. I'm not totally unreasonable, I know that other carriers let scope go on the 70 seaters (and contrary to the belief among NW pilots, that includes you- AVRO ring a bell?) and that it is now industry std. for that size AC to fly at regionals. But up to 90 CRJ9/EMB175 size AC? Even USAirways said no to any more of that BS, and they were in the 2nd round of CH11, with a company that (IMO) has bigger problems than NW. Once you give up scope, it doesn't come back, and this contract carier buisness makes it virtually impossible for the feeder airlines to get a decent contract.

3) Lastly, and this is really minor compared to above- the DC plan in the TA is completely BS- what did the UA guys get?

Turbo

 

[mynameisjim]

Oh...and here's another kicker: If you are flying for NWA right now, you won't be at Compass.



I promise!

Holy Crap!!!! I can't believe you think that they won't furlough more because of this deal. You can't just lay down a blanket statement that says everyone at NWA won't lose their job and have to consider Compass.

I'd be willing to wager that there are another 500 furloughs before this is all done. But even if there aren't, I can't believe you can think there will be no chance of a flowback.

 

[Tank Commander]

I see a sell of a ticket in the future, Planes and pilots. Their will only be a 3rd airlink for about 2-3 years. NWA will want the cash and not the headache. They have two other airlinks operating at a fraction of the cost of their new monster. Why Keep it. If you vote yes on the T/A, and you get caught up in this new airline, keep an I on Masa's pay-scale. It might become pertinent to your future.

 

[JohnDoe]

quote:
"Holy Crap!!!! I can't believe you think that they won't furlough more because of this deal. You can't just lay down a blanket statement that says everyone at NWA won't lose their job and have to consider Compass. "




That seems to be the delusion that occam and others are voting under. They actually think that compass won't result in more furloughs as -9's are parked when those 76 seater's come on line. NWA can outsource up to 90 76 seater's before they have to give mainline ANY small jets. Ninety........


Again, if occam wants to vote yes on the ta because it benefits him, well, that is his choice. But he still likes to come here and pretend it is a good deal for even the junior folk. "If you are flying for NWA right now, you won't be at Compass." Please.........:laugh: Hopefully most people can see that won't be the case.

 

[CrownandCoke]

what does any of this mean for Pinnacle?

 

[Occam's Razor]

1) Voting no does not have to mean a strike or imposed work rules (there is no reason they can't come back to the table)

And there is no reason that they should. If they can get a better deal from the judge, why should they come back to the table to get a worse deal for themselves?

3) Lastly, and this is really minor compared to above- the DC plan in the TA is completely BS- what did the UA guys get?

1. What business is it of yours? You write "BS"as if you have a dog in this fight. Do you?
2. The UAL pilots don't have a DB pension. We do. They got a higher DC, and no DB. We have both.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Holy Crap!!!! I can't believe you think that they won't furlough more because of this deal. You can't just lay down a blanket statement that says everyone at NWA won't lose their job and have to consider Compass.

1. I am involved in staffing analysis for ALPA.
2. Read your PENTRY e-mails; look at the current caps for each category; attend a Roadshow to see the staffing-impact analysis.

[/quote]I'd be willing to wager that there are another 500 furloughs before this is all done. But even if there aren't, I can't believe you can think there will be no chance of a flowback. [/quote]

There is always a chance! The 3 critical factors at this point are:

1. Lease rejection negotiations on 10 A319's.
2. The status of IND and MKE through the summer.
3. Age 60.

But don't take the bet. I would just waste my winnings on beer!

 

[Indy319FA]

In time this airline will be just a network of regional carriers flying under the NWA logo. Eventually, will all NWA pilots will be working for regional wages/rules?

Best post on this thread yet. There was an article in the WSJ a few months ago that pointed out the long term goal of the legacy companies is to outsource everything below 150 seats. These companies would basically become brand names and what is left of the original company would only be flying larger narrowbodies and widebodies, with 80% of the domestic flying outsourced. This is the period in the business cycle where profits should be up and unions are preparing to try and get back what they had to give up during the bottom of the business cycle. Instead it looks like the next time any negiotiating will be going on (2010-2015 timeframe) the business will be entering a down cycle, which will probably require more concessionary negotiations. There was a financial analyst that testified before the House Aviation Subcommittee right before the ATSB denied United for the second time. He pointed out that even with bankruptcy and federal loans that most of these legacy carriers would be right back in bankruptcy during the next downturn in the business cycle (after 2010) because of their crushing debt load. So anybody that thinks they are going to get back any concessions on scope in the future is crazy. In fact, the trends point in the other direction, and more will be demanded in the future.

 

[JohnDoe]

Read pentry email: Are you referring to the statement management made that said they only anticipated another 150-200 furloughs? (I don't get pentry anymore) Key phrase is it "came from management." Are you actually going to base the no furlough assumption on something that came from management??

Look at current caps for each catagory: Once again, you left out a little information about caps. If the TA passes, caps will raise 12 months after the signing. It also allows for the flex of caps to 90 hours which is, I believe, 2 more hours than currently allowed. Higher caps equals less pilots.

Attend roadshows: Well, I have to admit I haven't done that. However, from what I have been reading from the union, it seems that everybody is basing the furloughs (or supposed lack thereof) on the company not parking dc-9's. Therein lies the problem with myself and many others (see previous post). The narrow body floor doesn't even take affect until 1 year AFTER the company emerges from chapter 11 (United was in for 3 years...), or the first 36 76 seater's. Less furloughs due to the effect of the early retirement package you say?? Attrition?? Nobody has a clue as to how many will take that offer....it could be zero. Nobody knows what attrition will be.

Long story short, to think the 76 seat aircraft won't replace some 9 flying is pure wishfull thinking. Seems to me, the almighty staffing analysis is based on the fact of 9's staying around. Where is that coming from? Management??!?!? Plus, the company doesn't even have to give any new "small jets" to mainline until the 76 seat count hits 90.

You keep asking people to give a reason to vote no on the TA, yet you seem to be leaving little tidbits out of your posts regarding why yes is good. Once again, I don't think this TA is as good for the juniors as you seem to be trying to allude to.

 

[2 Live]

Enjoy your next long layover staying at the Super 8 by the airport Ockham. Get back to us and let us know how "risible" you feel after that.

 

[iaflyer]

In time this airline will be just a network of regional carriers flying under the NWA logo. Eventually, will all NWA pilots will be working for regional wages/rules?

I don't work for NWA - so just ignore me if you want because it's not my fight. Still - I don't know why people don't see this coming down the road.

Years ago, it was flying turboprops at the commuters.. then it was flying 50 seaters at the commuters.. now it's flying 76 seaters at the commuters..oops, regionals. Look at the 90 seaters.. that's the next fight. If you follow the natural progression, after that is all the DC9 flying. Right behind that is Airbus flying...

I can really see at NWA in 10 years, having ALL flying that is not widebody international flying done by regionals, at regional wages. Why not? The flying public doesn't care if the 150 seater is piloted by mainline pilots, Pinnacle, Mesaba or Compass. All they want is low fares.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Read pentry email: Are you referring to the statement management made that said they only anticipated another 150-200 furloughs? (I don't get pentry anymore) Key phrase is it "came from management." Are you actually going to base the no furlough assumption on something that came from management??

Not at all. Our management is required to notify us of computer bidding changes, post APA's, and explain displacements. Had you read it, you would've heard of the sudden uptick in resignations. It's caused a staffing shortfall in some categories. The displacement analysis (mentioned in Pentry) indicates the reason for the higher caps.

Look at current caps for each catagory: Once again, you left out a little information about caps. If the TA passes, caps will raise 12 months after the signing. It also allows for the flex of caps to 90 hours which is, I believe, 2 more hours than currently allowed. Higher caps equals less pilots.

Not quite. The caps for most categories are 86-88 hours. The T.A. sets a variable cap at 88 max, with 4 months of flex to 90.

If you want the full impact...or non-impact, you'll have to attend a Roadshow. I'm not going to type out the full analysis here.

Attend roadshows: Well, I have to admit I haven't done that. However, from what I have been reading from the union, it seems that everybody is basing the furloughs (or supposed lack thereof) on the company not parking dc-9's. Therein lies the problem with myself and many others (see previous post). The narrow body floor doesn't even take affect until 1 year AFTER the company emerges from chapter 11 (United was in for 3 years...), or the first 36 76 seater's. Less furloughs due to the effect of the early retirement package you say?? Attrition?? Nobody has a clue as to how many will take that offer....it could be zero. Nobody knows what attrition will be.

The DC-9's can't be parked if NWA wants full exit financing. The DC-9's represent 1/4 of NWA flying. Again, that was clearly laid-out at the Roadshows.

Long story short, to think the 76 seat aircraft won't replace some 9 flying is pure wishfull thinking. Seems to me, the almighty staffing analysis is based on the fact of 9's staying around. Where is that coming from? Management??!?!? Plus, the company doesn't even have to give any new "small jets" to mainline until the 76 seat count hits 90.

Of course 76-seat flying will erode some of the traditional DC-9 flying. Nobody has said it won't. The DC-9's will stay at NWA until they cycle-out (104,000 cycles). The key is they won't erode the flying the way the Newco proposal would have: DC-9's to Compass, all new 55-100 seat aircraft as well. That is the 2/3/2006 position that NWA would be free to impose if the T.A. is rejected.

I think that is worse. What do you think?

You keep asking people to give a reason to vote no on the TA, yet you seem to be leaving little tidbits out of your posts regarding why yes is good. Once again, I don't think this TA is as good for the juniors as you seem to be trying to allude to.

I think it is better than the alternative. Since you dont' know what the alternative is, you can't say that it isn't.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Enjoy your next long layover staying at the Super 8 by the airport Ockham. Get back to us and let us know how "risible" you feel after that.

Wow! You're very first post...and you use it to zing me about hotels?

I'm flattered!

Any hotel I stay in is better than any BOQ the Marines put me in...so I'm cool. I pretty excited just not having to share a bathroom anymore!

 

[TurboAWD]

And there is no reason that they should. If they can get a better deal from the judge, why should they come back to the table to get a worse deal for themselves?

Strike- and fight the injunction....



1. What business is it of yours? You write "BS"as if you have a dog in this fight. Do you?

Yep...the next 29 (if 60 stays- it won't) "career"

2. The UAL pilots don't have a DB pension. We do. They got a higher DC, and no DB. We have both.

Again, all about YOU (granted, that you have that right). NWA doesn't have DB anymore---you have what's left of it, but the program is done- right?

 

[JohnDoe]

Again, there seem to be alot of assumptions going on here.....

Uptick in resignations and shortfalls in staffing: Ok, that may be for right now, but "present performance does not guarantee future results." Assumptions that it will continue.

9's can't be parked if they want exit financing (that seems dubious to me, we're not talking about parking them all at once, but I'll take your word for it): Ok, how about they get their financing, exit chap 11, then start parking them en masse......same result, slightly later date.

9's will stay until they cycle out: Again, seems to me that is an assumption based on management information.

"That is the 2/3/2006 position that NWA would be free to impose if the T.A. is rejected." : Nobody knows for sure what will happen if the ta is rejected. Management imposition of whatever they want is not guaranteed. Are you sure the judge will allow them to do what they want? More assumptions. Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't they already impose some terms since the date for the judge to render a decision has come and gone??

You say I don't know what the alternative is.....well, seems to me neither do you. Nobody does. If NW pilots reject the ta, the course is not 100% sure.

 

[FlyingSig]

Sure. We took a vote and everything.

I believe our managment has considered an injunction too.

What then?

Here's a crazy idea. Get your own injunction that prevents NWA from imposing any new terms until their injunction has passed through the courts. Then you still have a contract (status quo) , the company is still in business, AND there is incentive to actually negotiate.

But don't worry, by agreeing to the TA and just starting the vote, you've put the ball of actually being the group with the gumption to test the courts on the legality of a strike back in our court.... wouldn't it be a bummer though if the arbitrator panel gave us a two week extension and you guys honest to god have to vote on your TA instead of wait and see what Delta does? Don't worry though, I'm sure we'll get our own TA and nobody will ever have to be "the one". ..... Well, I take that back, Meaba and Comair Flight Attendents will probably show the rest of labor what should be done....

 

[Bringupthebird]

Who, in their right mind, thinks that this battle is the typical cyclical skirmish of years ago? ALPA trots out the familiar "We'll get 'em next time", "Pick your battles" and "Better to get half a loaf..." horse apples which show their astonishing nievete'. This IS the battle!

Those with courage look beyond the red or blue pill in management's hand and strive for more. Will they get it? There's no guarantee, but they certainly won't by voting "YES" under the delusion that there will be better bargaining times ahead. I would challenge anyone to cite an example where pilots gave the company money or conceded work rules, ostensibly to see it through rough times, and came to see that money returned to them and not be under threat of losing it again in subsequent negotiations.

YES supporters will say that we must remain competitive and that we do not operate in a vacuum. That's true, but ALPA or any other union must act as the rudder of the profession and steer it regardless of current. To think that we can pull out of this graveyard spiral our profession has been put in and not pull more than 1g, that none will have to suffer real sacrifice to affect real change, is ludicrous.

If you are okay with having seen the high water mark of pilot pay and a future that holds only the promise of continued erosion of the profession, then a yes vote makes sense.

If, though, you are willing to abandon the relative safety of the dinghy and storm the wheelhouse in hopes of saving the profession, regardless of the cost, then win or lose, you have earned the honor that goes with a NO vote.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Who, in their right mind, thinks that this battle is the typical cyclical skirmish of years ago? ALPA trots out the familiar "We'll get 'em next time", "Pick your battles" and "Better to get half a loaf..." horse apples which show their astonishing nievete'. This IS the battle!

Those with courage look beyond the red or blue pill in management's hand and strive for more. Will they get it? There's no guarantee, but they certainly won't by voting "YES" under the delusion that there will be better bargaining times ahead. I would challenge anyone to cite an example where pilots gave the company money or conceded work rules, ostensibly to see it through rough times, and came to see that money returned to them and not be under threat of losing it again in subsequent negotiations.

YES supporters will say that we must remain competitive and that we do not operate in a vacuum. That's true, but ALPA or any other union must act as the rudder of the profession and steer it regardless of current. To think that we can pull out of this graveyard spiral our profession has been put in and not pull more than 1g, that none will have to suffer real sacrifice to affect real change, is ludicrous.

If you are okay with having seen the high water mark of pilot pay and a future that holds only the promise of continued erosion of the profession, then a yes vote makes sense.

If, though, you are willing to abandon the relative safety of the dinghy and storm the wheelhouse in hopes of saving the profession, regardless of the cost, then win or lose, you have earned the honor that goes with a NO vote.

Everybody wants someone, other than themselves to fall on thier sword.

In addition, you seem to believe that ALPA has an ability that could solve this. Are you sure? Perhaps in Europe were workers rights have more value. But we live in the USA.

Yes we are in the Perfect Storm. The Perfect Storm of capital market forces. And you think ALPA has a boat for this? Maybe in Europe.

But we live in a culture and economy where cash is King and an unsympathetic Admin. The dollar rules. And the real players aren't going to let a bunch of blue collar pilots change the paradigm.

The fact is you don't know the consequences of a NO vote. I repsect the courage of those who do.

The fact is a YES vote maybe wise. I respect the courage of those who do.

 

[EMB Skillz]

Do you believe everything you read in Air Line Pilot? We all know you wait by the mailbox for it, but leave that mailman alone!

 

[redflyer65]

Occam, Are you kidding me with this line of thought? Just because everyone else bent over, we might as well take ours. I'm sure it's the best we can do. Give me a friggin' break. You'd be better of with Gropper than Steenland. No question. Your basically selling off more than a third of the company (with its pilots) if you vote for this TA.

Explain to me why Northwest needs to even waste money buying a new certificate. Why don't the Northwest pilots fly these planes under the Northwest banner at industry standard rates?

I welcome anyone to answer this question. No one seems to know the answer. Its just 'that's what everyone else is doing'.

 

[starvingredtail]

Vote No and get a better bargaining position. Press to test. Sometimes you just have to say WTF. Throw caution to the winds. Grow some nads. Keep the faith. Think positively. "Yes" is for sissies. Eat a manwich. Make us proud. Go for it. Shove it up Steenland/Cohen's A$$. You dont get what you deserve, you get what you negotiate. Remember the Alamo. Uncle Sam wants you. I regret that I have but one life to give for my country. Don't give up the ship. Damn the torpedoes...full speed ahead. Lets roll.

Good luck with your decisions.

 

[iballdriver]

Eat a manwich.
Good luck with your decisions.[/quote]

not just a sandwich, but a MANWICH........
bc

 

[filejw]

RF65, Check out the TA. On a 50 /70 seat a/c the rates at Sjet are better than standard.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Everybody wants someone, other than themselves to fall on thier sword.

No, but either use the sword or get rid of it if you're afraid of hurting yourself with it. Remember - Pointy end goes forward.

 

[Occam's Razor]

No, but either use the sword or get rid of it if you're afraid of hurting yourself with it. Remember - Pointy end goes forward.

And you'd know that, how?

Have you ever used one? I did. 1998.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Again, all about YOU (granted, that you have that right). NWA doesn't have DB anymore---you have what's left of it, but the program is done- right?

1. It is all about "us". [Note: You are not included in the "us"]
2. NWA has a frozen DB. It represents a lot of money to most NWA pilots. UAL has no DB. It represents nothing to a lot of pilots. Apples and oranges at this point.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Here's a crazy idea. Get your own injunction that prevents NWA from imposing any new terms until their injunction has passed through the courts. .

Hang on! I think I get it now! If we get an injunction against their efforts to get an injunction against our efforts to get an injunction to stop them from getting one against us....we're set!

Woo Hoo!

You've solved the problem! We're saved!

Man!...I gotta get me one of those on-line Law Degrees too! Those things ROCK!

Seriously...you're right, it is "a crazy idea".

Then you still have a contract (status quo) , the company is still in business, AND there is incentive to actually negotiate

Not quite.
Let's hope.
Why?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Anyone want to post a guess on how long it will take Northwest Management to sell Compass? It would be a great way to get exit financing.

The precedent is there. US Air pilots thought they saved the E190 flying. Now they work for Chautauqua making less than turboprop pilots at ASA and Horizon. Mid Atlantic got sold off to Republic.

All this is is a job grab - and what prime positions they will be. Compass pilots will have the joy of negotiating against the pilots at Mesa, Chautauqua, ASA, Skywest, Pinnacle, Air Wisconsin........ Heck, maybe Mesaba guys can return the favor some time.