NWA Cargo (Delta) Scope? whoops.

[PeanuckleCRJ]

http://www.aircargoworld.com/break_news/26052009a.html


Add Martinair to the DCI list now, I guess.... with MD-11s. Absolutely rediculous. It will be interesting to see ALPA's take on this.

 

[flyf15]

Those 100+ well paying widebody jobs aren't important to keep for pilots on your seniority list, they're only flying boxes.

Wouldn't want to be caught dead flying a freight hauler anyways, thats almost as bad as flying an RJ.... Its a slippery slope. When you keep giving, management is going to keep taking until theres nothing left. Sooner or later, that "that flying is beneath me" or "sure, I'll vote it away for a $3 raise" is going to catch up with EVERYONE on the seniority list. With things like this an the Aer Lingus / United deal, scope isn't just about outsourcing RJs anymore.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Yeah I can't imagine how degrading it would be to have freighters and "small" jets on our seniority list. The horror...

I wonder what Moak with his cute little lisp will have to say about this one.

 

[aircowboy]

Unbelievable! This is a blatant scope violation.

 

[andyd]

deleted everything i wrote...i'm so sick of logging onto here and reading the same ******************** over and over and over....it just never ends. how do i cancel this memebership. i'm going to stick my head in the sand and pretend blindly that Moak is going to protect us junior guys

 

[flap operator]

How is this any different than the JAL/NWA and Korean/NWA cargo codeshares they used to have? This just appears to extend the pax JV to cargo flying as well. There were never any NWA freighters over the Atlantic anyhow.

 

[Superpilot92]

Cant wait to hear DALPA's response to this

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Perhaps now is the time for your ENTIRE pilot group to storm the doors of the next MEC meeting!
Nothing changes unless EVERYONE does their part to change it. The MEC should be downright bombarded FACE to FACE and overthrown ASAP. Perhaps now would be a good time to let the NWA guys who actually seemed to not be working for MGT step in from here?

 

[General Lee]

I think we are going to have to look at this one closely. BUT, we have NOT been flying cargo 742s over the ATLANTIC in years. Nope, the NWA 742s have been flying out of an ANC hub to Asia, almost exclusively. No flights to AMS (maybe MAC pax runs on the 2 pax 742s), nothing across the atlantic. If they started using them on our NRT slots thru ANC, I think that would throw up a huge red flag. If this is only across the Atlantic and nothing using our slots in NRT, then this may slip by. Face it, the cargo 742s have run their course, and there aren't a lot of other cargo planes out there except old DC10s and DC8s (both dumped by FedEx and UPS lately). We still need to watch this, though..... KLM owns Martinair Cargo (and the pax airline Martinair), along with their own 744F operation out of AMS. Air France has cargo 744s, and now cargo 777s. (the first to have new 777s solely for cargo use)


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[flyf15]

This sets a dangerous precedent that an airline that once (and currently) has a strong all cargo division, employing well over 100 senority list pilots, is now creating an international joint venture to have its cargo flown by non-senority list, non-american pilots.

Even if it is not currently meant for ANC/NRT flying, in the future if Delta so chooses to run dedicated cargo flights through this portion of the world, do you think they will order and fly aircraft with senority list Delta pilots or add someone like Korean Air Cargo to the their cargo joint venture? I think I know the answer...

 

[General Lee]

This sets a dangerous precedent that an airline that once (and currently) has a strong all cargo division, employing well over 100 senority list pilots, is now creating an international joint venture to have its cargo flown by non-senority list, non-american pilots.

Even if it is not currently meant for ANC/NRT flying, in the future if Delta so chooses to run dedicated cargo flights through this portion of the world, do you think they will order and fly aircraft with senority list Delta pilots or add someone like Korean Air Cargo to the their cargo joint venture? I think I know the answer...

Again, we should watch this and make sure we do not allow that, but at the same time, can you find some NEW Cargo planes we could replace the 742s with? Are there any MD11 cargo birds out there? How about 744s? (some are parked in the desert, but not in cargo mods) How many could we get? There are some passenger airlines that do cargo well, (Korean, JAL, ANA (and NCA), AF, Martinair, KLM, Emirates, etc) and then we had old planes at NWA Cargo that had to eventually go, and no replacement was insight. That is the problem here. Nothing more fuel efficient to replace the 742s. Sad but true. Would I like to find some new 777Fs (like Air France has) and start it back up again in ANC after they shut it down in December? YES. Will we? I don't think so.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

GL,

Open your eyes man... We don't have a cargo division beyond the end of this year, and then they sign this. If that isn't a replacement, I don't know what it is. Just because they are flying in a different theater doesnt mean they arent hauling dedicated cargo around that could be widebody captain positions at our airline.

 

[General Lee]

GL,

Open your eyes man... We don't have a cargo division beyond the end of this year, and then they sign this. If that isn't a replacement, I don't know what it is. Just because they are flying in a different theater doesnt mean they arent hauling dedicated cargo around that could be widebody captain positions at our airline.

I can see where you are going with this, but this ISN'T REPLACING any of our lost service. If it were directly using our NRT slots and flying in and out of ANC to ORD, JFK, LAX, etc (like NWA Cargo DID or will do until the end of the year), then that is something totally different. Would I like to have our OWN cargo planes doing some of that Trans Atlantic stuff? Sure I would. Can you find me some newer cargo planes in the meantime? No one else (NO ONE) uses Cargo 742s except Evergreen, Atlas, and Connie now. UPS parked all of their 742s because they were falling apart, and that is why we will be doing the same. Most of the Asian carriers have parked their 742s as well---JAL Cargo, NCA, Cathay Cargo, and even Korean. Air France has parked all of their cargo only 742s, and now uses 744Fs and new 777Fs. I wish we had some of those new 777Fs---that would make it easy. Too bad there aren't any except the new ones coming off the line to Air France and Aerologic.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FDJ2]

Perhaps now is the time for your ENTIRE pilot group to storm the doors of the next MEC meeting!
Nothing changes unless EVERYONE does their part to change it. The MEC should be downright bombarded FACE to FACE and overthrown ASAP. Perhaps now would be a good time to let the NWA guys who actually seemed to not be working for MGT step in from here?

Why wait for the next MEC meeting. According to my very reliable source, the largest LEC at DAL and probably in ALPA, Council 44, will have a meeting on June 23rd. On the advanced agenda will be a resolution asking the LEC to brief the council on scope issues and provide a periodic "scope report card" to the council. How many will actually show up and demand periodic accounting of DAL scope practices?

Why don't the rest of the Councils demand the same from their reps? The resolution will be directing the council to provide the brief and reports, not the MEC. Hard to table your own councils' resolution.

Will this resolution get shot down, due to lack of interest in scope matters, or are the line pilots actually interested in scope and will they make the effort to show up and vote?

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

It's replacing our whales, GL. I don't care where they are flying. It's not like there isn't plenty of new or even used freighters out there that we could get to replace the old classics.

They can easily do this at DL mainline, but our widebody jobs are getting outsourced now.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Why wait for the next MEC meeting. According to my very reliable source, the largest LEC at DAL and probably in ALPA, Council 44, will have a meeting on June 23rd. On the advanced agenda will be a resolution asking the LEC to brief the council on scope issues and provide a periodic "scope report card" to the council. How many will actually show up and demand periodic accounting of DAL scope practices?

Why don't the rest of the Councils demand the same from their reps? The resolution will be directing the council to provide the brief and reports, not the MEC. Hard to table your own councils' resolution.

Will this resolution get shot down, due to lack of interest in scope matters, or are the line pilots actually interested in scope and will they make the effort to show up and vote?

What time is the meeting? I've got an A-period that morning.

 

[FDJ2]

What time is the meeting? I've got an A-period that morning.

They typically start around 10am. Standby to hear more from your council when the advanced agenda is published. If you show up bring three proxies, if you can't make it, make sure some one votes your proxy. More info to follow, including proxy info.

JMHO, but a large turnout is a clear signal on this issue and could signal others to follow, LEC after LEC. If no one shows up, then obviously the young Turks at 44/MEC are on their own and have fallen on their proverbial sword.

Very important LEC elections this fall, nearly 1/3 of the roll call votes. Watch to see who speaks against and who speaks for, who's voting against and who is voting for.

 

[NuGuy]

They typically start around 10am. Standby to hear more from your council when the advanced agenda is published. If you show up bring three proxies, if you can't make it, make sure some one votes your proxy. More info to follow, including proxy info.

JMHO, but a large turnout is a clear signal on this issue and could signal others to follow, LEC after LEC. If no one shows up, then obviously the young Turks at 44/MEC are on their own and have fallen on their proverbial sword.

Very important LEC elections this fall, nearly 1/3 of the roll call votes. Watch to see who speaks against and who speaks for, who's voting against and who is voting for.

Heyas FDJ,

While I like your motivation and drive, remember, this is the MEC that said that resolutions were "not the will of the membership".

With that said, despite all the XOXO for the media and the membership, there is NO love lost between the DALPA MEC and the f-NWA councils, including one that also represents a large fraction of the membersip. I'd be working to gather as many allies as possible.

Nu

 

[aircowboy]

You guys are way off. Try over 300 Pilot Widebody jobs are being outsourced. General once again you don't know what you are talking about we have been doing plenty of Asia Trans-Pacific and Trans-Atlantic Flying with the Pax birds and freighters. We fly multiple trips to AMS and Germany, Kuwait, Spain, Afghanistan etc. etc. both Pax and Freight as well as Charter.

I still can't figure out how you guys think that a 777 should pay the same as a 747 when a 747 can carry 125 more people and or cargo and outweighs it by over 120,000 pounds. All those extra people and not a dollar of that revenue because of pride. It is time to swallow the pride and quit letting our scope get pissed on.

 

[Draginass]

Wow. If this is true, this should be a make or break issue with ALPA. If it isn't stopped, then DALPA might as well just save the money of a sham contract and go to an at-will employment basis.

Anderson must feel that he's got the DALPA leadership on his leash.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

My buddy said he got some kind of memo last week that said something about a "special MEC meeting" in ATL today...maybe today is the day for the storming?

 

[asadonkey]

I think we are going to have to look at this one closely. BUT, we have NOT been flying cargo 742s over the ATLANTIC in years. Nope, the NWA 742s have been flying out of an ANC hub to Asia, almost exclusively. No flights to AMS (maybe MAC pax runs on the 2 pax 742s), nothing across the atlantic. If they started using them on our NRT slots thru ANC, I think that would throw up a huge red flag. If this is only across the Atlantic and nothing using our slots in NRT, then this may slip by. Face it, the cargo 742s have run their course, and there aren't a lot of other cargo planes out there except old DC10s and DC8s (both dumped by FedEx and UPS lately). We still need to watch this, though..... KLM owns Martinair Cargo (and the pax airline Martinair), along with their own 744F operation out of AMS. Air France has cargo 744s, and now cargo 777s. (the first to have new 777s solely for cargo use)


Bye Bye---General Lee

I am starting to see why 68% of all DL flying is done by connection, and this guy says he is tough on scope LOL

 

[ils2minimums]

I don't get how someone can say this isn't a straight-up outsourcing of your flying. So they're not flying the exact same routes, YET? Give them time. Within a year, there'll be a bunch of shiny new 777's and 747's in your ALLIANCE PARTNER'S colors performing all of that flying. I hope you guys are able to quash this... For ALL of our sake's.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

The Special MEC meeting today is for the PERPS for those freighters being parked. Expect details by the end of the week.

As for this, I hate to say this, but we do not have tactile info on this. The release says access. Not new service, not service out of ANC, but access to a existing route network. IMHO if proven successful, it could lead to a dedicated cargo arm of Delta again.
DALPA has been in high level talks with AF, KLM and their respective unions. I am sure this is not a surprise to them.

I agree that we need to watch this joint venture closely. I have been saying that wide body lift is going away because of it.

 

[Schwanker]

I think we are going to have to look at this one closely. BUT, we have NOT been flying cargo 742s over the ATLANTIC in years. Nope, the NWA 742s have been flying out of an ANC hub to Asia, almost exclusively. No flights to AMS (maybe MAC pax runs on the 2 pax 742s), nothing across the atlantic.

Bye Bye---General Lee

Really?? Are you sure on that one???

 

[Voice Of Reason]

T
As for this, I hate to say this, but we do not have tactile info on this. The release says access. Not new service, not service out of ANC, but access to a existing route network. IMHO if proven successful, it could lead to a dedicated cargo arm of Delta again.
DALPA has been in high level talks with AF, KLM and their respective unions. I am sure this is not a surprise to them.

I agree that we need to watch this joint venture closely. I have been saying that wide body lift is going away because of it.

Whatever happened to those huge highly expensive refrigerated cargo containers that DL bought (per article around the time of merger announcement). Does anyone know where those are actually being used? Actually personally seen them in DL or NW planes?

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Whatever happened to those huge highly expensive refrigerated cargo containers that DL bought (per article around the time of merger announcement). Does anyone know where those are actually being used? Actually personally seen them in DL or NW planes?

They are for the under hold of our jets. Not for a upper deck.

I know we were planning on using some to bring in our own food for a few outbound Africa flights.
I am sure we are using them, but I have not looked in to it.

 

[FDJ2]

Heyas FDJ,

While I like your motivation and drive, remember, this is the MEC that said that resolutions were "not the will of the membership".

Nu

Well if the same 40 faces show up to the meeting then it will probably fail and if it does pass then it will barely squeak by. More importantly, if no one bothers to participate it will demonstrate that there is little interest, in which case the MEC is correct.

 

[andyd]

just curious: why is it that everyone is up in arms over a few widebody jobs being outsourced when for YEARS they have been outsourcing junior jobs to the RJ's? I agree with Voice of reason that NOW is the time to raise the bs flag over this. any lec rep that supports the current mec structure should be voted OUT in the next round of elections.

MOAK=NO SCOPE.....on either end of the list!!!

 

[i fly boxes]

It's replacing our whales, GL. I don't care where they are flying. It's not like there isn't plenty of new or even used freighters out there that we could get to replace the old classics.

They can easily do this at DL mainline, but our widebody jobs are getting outsourced now.

Within 10 years - "Welcome aboard Skyteam airlines, this skyteam flight will be operated by Delta Airlines"