NWA answer to pending strike of FA's

[Lear70]

There are a lot of people who will apply to NWA, in fcat I believe everyone in the regionals probably will, even the ones that say they won't. Also compass will be hiring street captains as that company doesn't have any staff. Also the current NWA mainline has a high rate of sttrition with pilots leaving for FedEx, UPS, or for a foriegn contract. They are expanding the south american routes with a need for hundreds of additional pilots ontop of the furloughees, retirees, and the rate of attrition. Personally I expect if NWa emerges from bankruptcy with the pension intact we will see at least 1500 pilots leave immediately. Since the difference between their pension and expected income could be supplemented by working part time at a super market and they would be home every night. So any regional airline pilot would be smart to go to NWA next year since by 2010 they will make captain.

Umm.... isn't that what I just got through saying?

Holy crap, we agree on something.

A great place to go if you're a regional pilot. If you're anywhere else, stay put, it sucks to be a red-tail employee.

 

[JAM-BRO]

You're right.

The pilots demonstrated that by their wimpering beating, corrupt infighting and ultimate embarrasment.

The mechanics..............well what can be said there, except simply THE embarrassmnet of the industry.

The management................yep, DEFINATELY all about me.

The F/A's who are being expected to work for almost literally peanuts are the ONLY work group there left with self respect.

Hopefully, they won't walk quietly into the gaschamber.

It's that Litterbox's last hope.

I say to them........shovel out those pilot and mechanic turds and clean the sand !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

EagleFly

You seem so smart... When I grow up I wanna be like you!!!

 

[eaglefly]

Also NWa may provide better job security as its cost of operations is almost less than that of SWA. By the end of this year NWA will have a lower cost of operation than any current LCC so it should stabilize a little bit.

Edit: I left a whole bunch of stuff out. So not to get flamed I have to explain. NWA has an AVERAGE CASM of 10.99 cents a mile and SWA has a SINGLE CASM of 8.05 cents a mile. Actually, when the fuel hedges run out SWA is about 30% higher in cost. The competing seat on NWA which is a domestic economy ticket actually has the same CASM as SWA. SWA sells only one seat a domestic economy ticket. NWA has domestic economy and First class; International economy and business class; regional economy and first class. When you average all of those together you get a cost of operation significantly higher than the CASM at SWA. However, you have to look at the CASM for the competing seat to have a valid comparison. When you look at it from that standpoint, my arguement is very valid.

**************MANAGEMENT PILOT ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!*****************

 

[Fly4hire]

**************MANAGEMENT PILOT ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!*****************

I don't know why I bother......only negativity, doom and gloom, and anonymous flaming are welcome here.....

.....yes, NWA got slammed hard, and is a shadow of the former place it was to work. That said it is still better than ANY regional, ANY 121 Supplemental, and anything other than perhaps FDX, UPS if are young enough (and if you don't mind the schedule and no pass privlidges) and SWA (if you don't mind the kind of flying for the rest of your life). AA is going to get hit hard, and CAL while perhaps a happier place to work has no better total benefits. U/AWA had lower pay and benefits before we even took the cuts. JB and AirTran are going to be the next Peoples Express and Western Pacific. The Fracs are the JB of corporate aviation, and I'll never schlep another rich guys bag, empty their feces from the head, or eat their left over catering again.

Except for the 3 aforementioned, every other job in the aviation industry is worse than what NWA has to offer. They have the best long term outlook in the industry, and I'll bet 5 yrs from now will be THE carrier everyone wants to get on with.

I have to truly laugh when I hear indignant RJ pilots talk about how they would never apply at NWA. Please, pass all your names so we can make sure not even to waste the paper on sending you an application.

YourPilotFriend has a lot of the details correct, and I agree with a lot of his assessments of the future staffing and upgrade scenarios there. Yeah the pay sucks and will for a while. Please enjoy your much better RJ career, or driving a cab that I hear is so much better a living......

 

[canyonblue]

Also NWa may provide better job security as its cost of operations is almost less than that of SWA. By the end of this year NWA will have a lower cost of operation than any current LCC so it should stabilize a little bit.

So based on your logic, your costs will never rise above where they are now. That means pilot pay will not ever increase at Northwest. You must be a Management pilot to hope for that scenario.

 

[FlyBoeingJets]

compass will be hiring street captains as that company doesn't have any staff.

NWA has an AVERAGE CASM of 10.99 cents a mile and SWA has a SINGLE CASM of 8.05 cents a mile. Actually, when the fuel hedges run out SWA is about 30% higher in cost. The competing seat on NWA which is a domestic economy ticket actually has the same CASM as SWA. SWA sells only one seat a domestic economy ticket. NWA has domestic economy and First class;

When you average all of those together you get a cost of operation significantly higher than the CASM at SWA. However, you have to look at the CASM for the competing seat to have a valid comparison. When you look at it from that standpoint, my arguement is very valid.

They are expanding the south american routes with a need for hundreds of additional pilots ontop of the furloughees, retirees, and the rate of attrition.

So any regional airline pilot would be smart to go to NWA next year since by 2010 they will make captain.

Naysayers beware! This may be spot on. Remember how CAL looked RIGHT after 9/11? Well, it looked real bad... But recently they have been hiring like gangbusters and newhires are looking at 4 year upgrades to Narrow Body Captain. They came close to a liquidity crisis, but escaped it.

We also all thought USAir and probably UAL would be oughta business. Now both look very solid.

As bad as it has looked for NWA, and DAL, it looks they are pulling out of the dive. Just like every other major in trouble since 9/11.

Slightly off Topic--The Delta boys are now optimistic about their return (Those with higher paying jobs that won't be going back to aviation) They're chief concern is whether they will be the lead group in the merger they assume will happen. If NWA is lead it will look brilliant to have stayed. The flip side is the possibility of further fleet reductions in a merger.

As far as costs being LESS than SWA. I'm going to have to see some numbers on that. Airtran is the one to beat on costs after hedges get less helpful. Compass will put a low cost option into the mix. But mainline NWA has some work to do. Debt, training costs (too many fleet types), more employees per airplane (again due to many fleet types, hub turn times decreasing employee/aircraft utilization) and less efficient scheduling will make that a target that hasn't been met....yet. But it doesn't have to be less than SWA's. If it is close enough, it will keep NWA going and will allow growth. I don't know what that number will be but that one may be met.

Good point on the first class seats. Are they getting filled? If not they are actually dragging down the revenue, not increasing it. That said the real point is whether the RASM will stay above the CASM. I look forward to the upcoming quarterly reports.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

So based on your logic, your costs will never rise above where they are now. That means pilot pay will not ever increase at Northwest. You must be a Management pilot to hope for that scenario.

Do you know what a SWA pilot would be making if they still had a regulation RPM/CASM spread? I think the last time I sat down and figured it out it was like over $1400 an hour for the most senior captain. SWA was an absolute joke of a carrier to go to compared to the legacies of old; which doesn't say much for the legacies of now.

No, pilot pay will not increase at NWA, at least not anytime soon. To compete with and stay an LCC, employee cost structure must remain low. The variety of services offered can never create a low enough cost structure to compete with an LCC if employee costs go up. In fact employee cost is actually going to lower when the senior people jump ship. NWA has about a 9% margin at the moment, and when they emerge from bankruptcy they will stabilize their cost structure and lower fares to increase load factors. That's why everyone is throwing money at NWA without a emergence plan or settled contracts.

 

[The Regulator]

The question is....Who in their right mind still wants to work there? In the next two years most airlines will be hiring again. So why would anybody want to work under this brutal mgmt team and subject themselves to a career with such intense unrest?

I myself used to want to work for NWA, however after seeing first hand how they do business ( i use this term loosely). I want to stay as far from anything with red paint on it as I can.

Good luck to you all
Schmitty

I agree, I was hired at NWA a few months before 9/11 and never ended up going. I now thank god I never ended up at that company. I would leave aviation and go find some other line of work before I went to that disaster of a company.

I count myself lucky that I am currently flying for a major that is doing great and that treats its pilots fairly well.

 

[accinelli]

NWA will never be "THE CARRIER" to work for. Unless of course they get rid of every flight attendant they have, followed by majority of the gate agents and top it off by shutting down DTW and MEM (probably the worst hubs in the history of commercial aviation) and half of their &^*7 for brains -- pilots. Do that and then they might possibly have a chance.

 

[xjlifer]

NWA will never be "THE CARRIER" to work for. Unless of course they get rid of every flight attendant they have, followed by majority of the gate agents and top it off by shutting down DTW and MEM (probably the worst hubs in the history of commercial aviation) and half of their &^*7 for brains -- pilots. Do that and then they might possibly have a chance.

Don't sit on the fence...tell us how you really feel.

 

[eaglefly]

NWA will never be "THE CARRIER" to work for. Unless of course they get rid of every flight attendant they have, followed by majority of the gate agents and top it off by shutting down DTW and MEM (probably the worst hubs in the history of commercial aviation) and half of their &^*7 for brains -- pilots. Do that and then they might possibly have a chance.

Don't forget terminating the ENTIRE management team.

Let's remember to place the blame where the incompatence and ethical bankruptcy is.

 

[AAflyer]

Double post.

 

[AAflyer]

I don't know why I bother......only negativity, doom and gloom, and anonymous flaming are welcome here.....

.....yes, NWA got slammed hard, and is a shadow of the former place it was to work. That said it is still better than ANY regional, ANY 121 Supplemental, and anything other than perhaps FDX, UPS if are young enough (and if you don't mind the schedule and no pass privlidges) and SWA (if you don't mind the kind of flying for the rest of your life). AA is going to get hit hard, and CAL while perhaps a happier place to work has no better total benefits. U/AWA had lower pay and benefits before we even took the cuts. JB and AirTran are going to be the next Peoples Express and Western Pacific. The Fracs are the JB of corporate aviation, and I'll never schlep another rich guys bag, empty their feces from the head, or eat their left over catering again.

Except for the 3 aforementioned, every other job in the aviation industry is worse than what NWA has to offer. They have the best long term outlook in the industry, and I'll bet 5 yrs from now will be THE carrier everyone wants to get on with.

I have to truly laugh when I hear indignant RJ pilots talk about how they would never apply at NWA. Please, pass all your names so we can make sure not even to waste the paper on sending you an application.

YourPilotFriend has a lot of the details correct, and I agree with a lot of his assessments of the future staffing and upgrade scenarios there. Yeah the pay sucks and will for a while. Please enjoy your much better RJ career, or driving a cab that I hear is so much better a living......

Please do tell, how is AA going to get hit so hard? By what?

Maybe I will just follow what your signature says. You seem to have everything figured out!!!

AAflyer

May I recommend a side gig with Air Inc, to supplement your NWA pay.

 

[accinelli]

Don't forget terminating the ENTIRE management team.

Let's remember to place the blame where the incompatence and ethical bankruptcy is.

Learn to spell first. Its no fun debating with an idiot.

 

[Fly4hire]

Please do tell, how is AA going to get hit so hard? By what?

Maybe I will just follow what your signature says. You seem to have everything figured out!!!

AAflyer

May I recommend a side gig with Air Inc, to supplement your NWA pay.

I predict that AA, either in or out of Ch11 will endure further concessions that will lower you within a percentage point or two of all the other post or current Ch11 legacy carriers. The only reason you are not Ch11 now is that APA caved deep and early the first time in an honest effort to avoid Ch11, but it's still not enough to compete against the current DAL,CAL, UAL, NWA, and U/AWA cost structure.

Not a statement of what's right or wrong, or who set the precedent, just how I see it shaking out. I do however find it a little ironic, that NWA, as the latest to cave is villified as the scourge of the industry, where all those that set the stage for NWA's Ch11 contract are somehow now vindicated......

..

 

[AAflyer]

I predict that AA, either in or out of Ch11 will endure further concessions that will lower you within a percentage point or two of all the other post or current Ch11 legacy carriers. The only reason you are not Ch11 now is that APA caved deep and early the first time in an honest effort to avoid Ch11, but it's still not enough to compete against the current DAL,CAL, UAL, NWA, and U/AWA cost structure.

Not a statement of what's right or wrong, or who set the precedent, just how I see it shaking out. I do however find it a little ironic, that NWA, as the latest to cave is villified as the scourge of the industry, where all those that set the stage for NWA's Ch11 contract are somehow now vindicated......

..

You are not villified, every legacy pilot group has done their fair share to destroy what we once known as "the bar". However you should study your costs more closely. We would need to give on productivity alone to meet CAL's pilot costs. Our S80 crews now have an aircraft specific CASM close to that of SWA.

With (as you like to say) our high costs we still posted a roughly $300 million 2nd quarter profit. We will post a 3rd quarter profit, and most likekly a profit for the year. We will not be giving into another concessionary contract.

What I find ironic is you seem almost seem giddy at the thought of another pilot group taking it in the shorts.

AAflyer

By the way, when your pilot group went to negotiate we and most other legacies were operating under our concessionary contract, why wouldn't you just give in... So you could compete like you are now, why the big "we will walk we will strike ploy?" Why can your company not afford to pay you your old rates? Do you think that is the reason you went banckrupt? You are a management wet dream.

Why could you not get SWA payrates. If their rates are so high won't SWA go out of business? Pilot costs do not cause an airline to go out of business. A poor management team and poor business strategy cause a company to go out of business.

We are no where near BK. Sorry....

 

[eaglefly]

Learn to spell first. Its no fun debating with an idiot.

A feeble attempt at verbal retaliation.

If that's your best (a spelling or grammatical error), then you've failed miserably.

I like to debate with someone I can identify.

"accinelli" sounds like you combined your rectum with an Italian dinner dish.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Y


Why could you not get SWA payrates. If their rates are so high won't SWA go out of business? Pilot costs do not cause an airline to go out of business. A poor management team and poor business strategy cause a company to go out of business.

We are no where near BK. Sorry....

Two words: "pricing power". If you can't set tickets to the price you make money your airline goes out of business even if you have a management dream team. Employee costs are part of the big picture. The reason SWA was so successful was because it had an untouchable model that could go into an airport analyze the best routes, cut fares to increase capacity and make loads of cash. Now it appears SWA is looking for its own routes to compete in markets with themselves. I don't understand it at all. We have the same CASM on routes we get a high RPM on and SWa comes in and lowers the RPM. There is no increase in capacity or money to be made in these tapped out markets. Now as SWa loses its prcing power it will somehow have to find a way to increase its load factors to generate the same revenue to reach predicted targets. However, now SWa should be controlling capacity, but instead they are adding it. Things should get interesting.

 

[Fly4hire]

What I find ironic is you seem almost seem giddy at the thought of another pilot group taking it in the shorts.

Not at all - the more carriers that can keep scales higher the better for the rest of us to eventually pattern bargin back up. I do unfortunately see the pattern against us at the moment for the pax carriers.

Why could you not get SWA payrates. If their rates are so high won't SWA go out of business? Pilot costs do not cause an airline to go out of business. A poor management team and poor business strategy cause a company to go out of business.

Labor was absolutely not the cause of BK, however once we were there they were able to effectively bludgeon us with threats of dire consequences. They did a better job of negotiating than we did.

We are no where near BK. Sorry

Hope you stay that way, however I have no doubt AA will use the threat thereof - like they did last time - to have their way with you. Want to talk about mgmt wet dreams - they didn't even have to go there to get what they wanted out of you.

 

[canyonblue]

I don't understand it at all. We have the same CASM on routes we get a high RPM on and SWa comes in and lowers the RPM.

That's why you're a Management Pilot and not Upper Management. You say you don't understand it, heck your whole Management at Northwest doesnt understand it. And they never will.