NWA and ERAU hiring program

[Vik]

I guess the difference between the foreign airlines having cadet programs and this ERAU-NWA deal is that NWA wants to let these kids actually FLY the plane while the foreign airlines make the cadets babysit the autopilot for a couple of years (if not more) while doing a lot of intense sim training. Also, even after they are ready to upgrade to actually touching the controls, the flights are in VFR situations with an experienced Captain by their side. Even they aren't crazy enough to put inexperienced pilots into a jet down to minimums.

 

[gnx99]

Strange stuff

What's NWA's reason for this? I can see for regionals, but a major?

Aren't there literally thousands of regional pilots with thousands of hours in t-props and jets that would love the chance to get hired by NWA or another major? Common sense would say, hire the regional pilots first.

 

[othello]

Wow, correct me if Iam wrong but the last I heard was that ERAU Instructors aern't even allowed to go IMC with their Ifr students? If they can't take there little c-172 in the clouds, I don't want to be sitting in the back of an A320 when one of these guys comes out of their18 mo sim deal and lines up for a snow covered 1600 RVR launch out of MSP.
I also heard that NWA offered Mesaba (xj) prefered hire deal something like 10 or 12% of new hires would be garunteed from XJ. We turned them down pre 9/11 18% of new hires were already XJ pilots.

Fly Safe, O.

 

[LITCHAT7]

Nothing new

Northwest has had this program for some time. Its not as great as it sounds (at least thats the way I viewed it). You dont have to be an ERAU grad to take advantage. I got all my ratings part 61, started instructing, and then happened on an opportunity to ground instruct at NWA.. Same program basically. Was told after 3 years (and certain other hoops to jump through) I would "most-likely" be offered a position on-line. Yet nothing is definite! I could invest (3) years there, ON THE GROUND, and the program may wash (like others they've had). I chose the sure way to a flight deck (went to the regionals). I am sure I made the right choice. Even if I dont make it to the majors as fast, make less money (pay is fairly decsent for ground instructors), etc., etc., I simply love flying the line more than staying on the ground teaching somthing I'd have no practical experience with. So far, not to many have made it through these programs. I think its a case of dangling a carrot to get low-cost ground instructors really! Not bad thinking on their part.

 

[bobbysamd]

Foreign airline training

Maybe Riddle-Daytona is different, but at Prescott we used to take students to the LA Basin so they could shoot approaches in safe actual. It was a great experience for all.

I just want to add a comment about foreign airline training. These programs use a building-block philosophy and are very strict. They produce well-trained pilots. I taught Alitalia students at FSI for a year and became familiar with its program. We received students who were selected by the airline to be trained and had earned their PPLs in Italy. We trained them for their Commercial-Multi-Instrument using Alitalia's line procedures and LOFT philosophy. An Alitalia training captain was always on site and scrutinized the students very closely. After earning their U.S. certificates they went back to Alitalia's Flight Academy in Alghero to fly Cheyennes for another couple hundred of hours. I believe this involved a great deal of enroute IFR training. Then, at about 500 hours, they trained for the line to fly DC-9s. Of course, all of this training was highly structured and no hours were wasted boring holes in the sky.

I know that Lufthansa's and ANA's programs are similar from a friend(s) who worked at their schools in Goodyear and Bakersfield.

 

[chperplt]

othello

Not sure where you heard that IMC was not allowed, but that's not the case.. at least not at the Daytona campus. I took my students IMC every chance I could.

 

[bigboy]

Many people on these aviation boards are really hung up on people paying their dues. Just because thats the way it was done in the past doesn't mean it has to be or will continue to be that way in the future. Like Vik said, countless other airlines basically OJT their pilots and they aren't falling out of the sky at any faster rate than our own airlines. Another example is one near and dear to my heart, the USAF. Take some puke straight outta college who often has never been in a cockpit, and in a few months, hes soloing a twin engine jet trainer. After a year and some change, he's in his assigned aircraft, heavy or fighter, flying across the ocean with troops or bombs. Has he "paid his dues" in that short time of a year? You guys need to at least conceive of the notion that things can be done in ways that diverge from the past.

Saftey records, in the USA is the best in the world, that tells you that the system (Paying your dues) works. its that simple.

 

[Visceral]

Yeah, I UNDERSTAND what the discussion is about , I'm just pointing out that other organizations do things in different ways, and those ways WORK too. I can have 9000 hours turbine experience, have shot 700 approaches to mins, and flown all over the world and still be a bad pilot with lousy CRM. The accident at Tenerife was caused by their top pilot(I forget his airline). I'm not saying this particular program is good or bad, I'm saying "paying dues" can be done in different ways. As far as saying the US safety records are the best in the world, what exactly do you mean. Are you talking accident rates? Saying US airlines crash less because their pilots are not fresh out of some training program ignores a lot, and hasn't been proven anywhere I've read. Many issues like pilot error, equipment, maintenance, regulation are all players in why planes crash. That pilot error comes from high timers and low. BTW, no US carrier has the best safety record in the world. We are good, but not the best.

Happy New Year

 

[Ty Webb]

Visceral:

Operating safely is a combination of knowlege, experinece, training, judgement and discipline. A pilot who has been flying in a 141 environment for five or six hundred hours in a piston single or twin has accumulated only a small amount of what is needed to be be a fully contributing crewmember.

While you are partially corrrect when you say that experience alone does not ensure safety, a lack of experience is a definite detriment to safety.

When you start operating transport-category equipment in an all-weather environment, you will realize that there is little margin for pilots who have so little experience that they haven't even gotten three or four winters under their belt yet.

In regards to your comments about our safety record- I think if you spend a little time doing the research, you'll find that the US operates over half of the world's scheduled departures, and has an accident rate that is extremely enviable. From time to time, there may be another carrier with a better accident rate, but UAL alone operates more flights a day than nearly all of Europe, and when the numbers play out, if we're not on the top of the heap, we're among the standard bearers.

PS., You seem to have a little bit of a chip on your shoulder, maybe it is just your youthful optimism, but whatever the reason, if you are going to make a career in this industry, you will be helping yourself to lose the attitude and to realize that you can learn a lot from the veterans of our industry.

 

[Spectre]

Let's face it. Airlines have to find alternative ways to fill their hiring needs. You can't source all of your pilots from the military or regionals. Forward looking airlines see this and are doing these types of arrangements with air universities. (This is all pre-Sept 11). There WAS a pilot shortage then. Airlines were competing for the best candidates. The Air Force offered me $250K to serve another 10 years. New military pilots must sign a 12 year commitment before they can get out. In the Clinton years, they closed 2 out of 6 pilot training bases. Now the Air Force doesn't have the capacity to train new pilots. Therefore, the military is not a dependable source of pilots for the majors as it used to be. On the other hand, regionals are growing, majors are shrinking. NWA, as do other majors, don't want to "steal" pilots from their commuters. At one time, the Avro jets were sitting idle because many of their captains were picked up by competing majors. NWA will still hire from their commuters, but as you can see, it's to their business advantage not to. Be real, intern programs such as this only hire a few people. It's not going to be their primary source for pilots. A good hiring program will hire a variety of people from a variety of backgrounds. However, given the current situation, no one's getting hired until the last furoughed pilot is back on the property.

 

[Visceral]

Ty Webb,

If discussing different views on an aviation subject is a chip on my shoulder, then well, you call it as you see it. I actually agree with your first 3 paragraphs. Your condescending remark about youthful optimism, however comes across sharply, since you have no idea how old I am or what I do. In addition, I HAVE done my research on Aviation safety...I have my Masters degree in it. What I said is still true. Its easy to get technical and say rates versus this or that, but as safe as we are, we are not the best. I think I'm done with this thread, since it seems differing views are vilified. Like I said, I'm not even involved in this program, I just hate to see one mindset pervade an entire industry.