Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

NWA ALPA 70 seat plan?

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
I read the proposal submitted by NWALPA. The quick summary goes something like this:


1. 70 seat jets flown by NWA mainline pilots

2. Of course there is a catch, this flying will be a "contract within a contract". Pay will be industry standard, yep Comair, Eagle, etc. There will be a defined benefit plan, i.e., some sort of 401k matching only. No credit for the mainline retirement. Furloughed pilots would get first shot at this, however, they could bypass until they get called back to the real mainline (I know this makes no sense). Pinnacle and Mesaba pilots might be able to flow up to this, but below all furloughed pilots. This would ensure them a mainline seniority number eventually. No "flow down", so it is a win-win for airlinkers.

3. This is a proposal to NWA, not vice-versa. There are obviously provisions that keep limits on this kind of flying. Obviously, you don't want to have all of the DC-9 flying going to the new B-scale.

4. Interesting thinking, I guess they think the flying is out there, why not make it possible for NWA seniority pilots fly these. NWALPA owns this flying and will not outsource to airlink, so if NWA wants 70 seaters, it is a possibility. I can't say that I would take part of this operation, but some furloughed guys will.

5. Hopefully, they can get a decent 70 seat rate, obviously not anywhere mainline, but still better than the existing regional carriers. I have a feeling that it will be more like a comair rate, but who knows...
 
RJ Defense Coalition
Ensuring One Level of Representation
[url]http://www.rjdefense.com[/url]

reply to: [email protected]


“BRAND SCOPE”: Truth and Consequences

Introduction

Imagine what life would be like at ASA and Comair if the Delta pilots were empowered to renegotiate your contract, cut your pay in order to subsidize their concessions, and displace you out of your aircraft in order to make room for a “preferred” class of pilots. Further, you would have little or no say in the negotiations. More importantly, your “vote” wouldn't matter because the new terms and restrictions are part of their contract—not yours. This is not fair. This is not new. This is ALPA's “Brand Scope.”

Now that ALPA has reportedly proposed “Brand Scope” at Delta, it's a good time to learn more about ALPA's latest bargaining ploy. For over two years ALPA has been arguing in court and in other forums that there is no such thing as “ASA” and “Comair” flying. As their argument goes, all “brand” flying “belongs” to the Delta pilots who may negotiate with it however they please.[1] So it shouldn't come as any surprise that the fuzzy concept of “brand scope” is little more than a desperate effort to disguise ALPA's dereliction of its duties to the ASA and Comair pilots.

“Brand Scope” Defined

ALPA has called for “brand scope,” as if it were a new union strategy intended to address changes in the industry. But examination reveals that “brand scope” is yet another ALPA euphemism for permitting Delta pilots to bargain whatever scope they desire with senior management, thus leaving the ASA and Comair pilots to vie for the leftovers. For example:


-- All flying ultimately belongs to the “mainline” pilots for scope purposes who may bargain any scope they please.
-- “Mainline” pilots allowed to unilaterally redefine “regional” or “feeder” flying.
-- Wholly-owned jobs and flying used by “mainline” pilots in their negotiations.
-- Wholly-owned bargaining subordinated to “mainline” bargaining.
-- “Mainline” pilots only required to “confer” with wholly-owned pilots.
-- ALPA national assumes no responsibility for actions of its “mainline” pilot groups.
-- Wholly-owned pilots have no standing to object.

It should be clear that ALPA's calls for “brand scope” amount to only a new marketing plan to sell an old product that doesn't work and only harms those so unfairly treated.

Actions Do Speak Louder Than Words

If you asked ALPA's leaders to define “Brand Scope,” they would probably tell you that it hasn't been defined in specific terms and that it's up to each “family” of affiliated pilot groups to work out the details. Don't be deceived. “Brand Scope” is defined, not by words, but by ALPA's actions—at the mainline bargaining table.

Delta Air Lines: Without first seeking the approval of the ASA and Comair pilots, ALPA has proposed to management that the Delta pilots be given “career” security within the Delta Brand (i.e. special employment rights as ASA and Comair.) “Brand Scope” is also reportedly part of DALPA's latest concessionary proposal.[2]

US Airways: Without first seeking the approval or input from the ALG, PDT, and PSA pilots, ALPA negotiated and implemented LOA 91 which greatly expanded the mainline pilot's control over the placement of small jets within the US Airways system. LOA 91 granted displaced mainline pilots super-seniority and special employment rights at all carriers within the US Airways “Brand” and its egregious terms were imposed upon ALPA's “regional” members on a “take it or leave it basis.”

United: Without first seeking the input or approval of its ALPA code-share affiliates, ALPA imposed Jets-for-Jobs on all 70-seat jets carrying the United code.

Northwest: Without first seeking the input or approval of the Pinnacle or Mesaba pilots, the Northwest MEC decided its negotiating committee will allocate flying within the NWA brand and has crafted bargaining proposals that would require that NWA pilots fly all 70-seat jets (i.e. new “preferred” alter-ego entity or Jets-for-Jobs.)[3]

Traps and Truths

Trap #1: “Brand Scope” takes many years to implement.
Truth: ALPA is obligated to protect the rights and interests of the ASA and Comair pilots. As such, ALPA cannot ignore duties owed today by promising to act properly tomorrow.

Trap #2: The mainline interests must negotiate on behalf of the “regional” carriers because they can't access the “real” management team.
Truth: This is a ploy to keep the “regional” pilots in the dark concerning ALPA's specific proposals and to hide the fact that ALPA's mainline interests use the small jet and its pilots as bargaining capital. Management must bargain with whomever ALPA sends to the table. ALPA, not management, determines “access” to the process and the relevant information.

Trap #3: The “Brand Scope” item listed in Delta-ALPA's recent proposal was just a “place-holder” on the agenda to be filled in later if the parties so choose.
Truth: ALPA's own definition of “Brand Scope” calls for the effected pilot groups to agree in advance before anything is negotiated with management. The fact that the ASA and Comair MEC’s did not authorize the Delta MEC to place anything on the agenda, much less agree to “Brand Scope,” suggests that “Brand Scope” is not what ALPA claims it to be. “Brand Scope” is off to a “Bad Start”.

Summary

Brand Scope is defined by ALPA's actions, not words. To-date, ALPA's actions at every other “mainline” carrier proves that Brand Scope is nothing more than a new label for old practices. In the year since “Brand Scope” was advanced by ALPA, two of the union’s largest carriers have unilaterally imposed their “brand” of Jets for Jobs and new small jet restrictions; while two more major carriers appear to be planning the same.

However, unlike less fortunate pilot groups, the ASA and Comair pilots have engaged in a vigorous defense of our rights. You can prevent the unilateral imposition of Brand Scope by supporting these efforts and staying informed.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[1] ALPA to US District Court in Ford v. ALPA.
[2] December 2003 “Negotiator's Notepad” and published reports concerning ALPA's July 20, 2004 proposal to Delta Management.
[3] Northwest MEC Code-a-phone message dated July 16, 2004
 
quote:
"Northwest: Without first seeking the input or approval of the Pinnacle or Mesaba pilots, the Northwest MEC decided its negotiating committee will allocate flying within the NWA brand and has crafted bargaining proposals that would require that NWA pilots fly all 70-seat jets (i.e. new “preferred” alter-ego entity or Jets-for-Jobs.)[3]"



And exactly why is it that they would have to get the input or approval of Pinnacle or Mesaba to operate 70 seat jets???

They have a little piece of paper (since 1998, this is nothing new), called a contract, signed and agreed upon by NW management that states all flying 56 seats and greater belongs to mainline. Again, this is nothing new, it has been that way for almost 6 years now.

PCL or Mesaba never had the 70 seat flying (exception of grandfathered avros). Nothing is being taken away from them. They never had it in the first place.

Neither PCL or Mesaba are "wholly-owned." They are contract carriers.
 
michael707767 said:
No I don't. And I don't think anyone should be trying to underbid anyone else. However, I think it somewhat hypocritical for regional guys to be complaining about the majors thinking of trying to capture back some flying by bidding less, when all along the only reason any flying was ever outsourced is because you were willing to do it for less.

Your claim sounds good on the surface but it is full of holes if you look closer.
How can we "do it for less" when there are no aircraft like we fly at mainline?
Actually, the mainline pilots are the ones "doing it for less". Look at USAIR.

Comairs rates for the RJ are amongst the highest in the Airline industry .Mainline USAIR pilots rates are amongst the lowest. Sorry to bust your bubble.
 

Latest resources

Back
Top Bottom