NWA A320 pilots

[SWAdude]

I actually purchased tickets to fly to a birthday party and have a question about your operating procedures.

We pushed back from the gate in SMF and during the second engine start the APU shutdown. The captain on the intercom informed us that we are returning to the gate to have maintenance perform some paper work and we would be on our way. After hooking up ground power the airplane went dark and messed up some electrons on the electric jet so we had to completely power down and start up again. During this whole time the contract maintenance guy never left the cockpit so I assume(always dangerous) that it was indeed as the Captain said just to be paperwork.

Believe me I know sh#t happens but my question is couldn't you just have defered the APU and performed a x-bleed start and been on our way?

This whole fiasco caused a 1 1/2 hour delay and caused us to miss our connect in MSP so we had to spend the night.

Thanks for any additional info you can share.

SWAdude

 

[General Lee]

At least you got a free hotel room.......



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[FutureTEDpilot]

Hey dude! It's an Airbus, what do you expect?

 

[a320drivr]

I can tell you at jetBlue the APU is an enroute MEL that can be deferred by the crew.

 

[furloughed dude]

It sounds like they did what they were supposed to do. They called maintenance and completed the paperwork. They aren't supposed to just crossbleed start and write it up later. NWA doesn't do enroute MELs and can't fly with an open write up. I don't know why it took that long to MEL the item, maybe they were waiting on an external air cart to provide air for the start.

It isn't all that uncommon to reboot up the airbus.

Sounds to me like it was slow contract maintenance.....

 

[Habib]

When the BUS shuts down at the gate, what he hell is that sound that starts, sounds like barking dogs from below.

I would guess it is the Elec. Hyd. Pumps?

But really no clue.

Always makes the PAX laugh.

This has been on the NWA planes, only BUS I have been on.

 

[Slug]

It is Hydraulic pumps. I don't remember which ones in particular or what gets them barking. In the short time I was on Le'bus at UAL we had to calm about 10 different pax down at different times because they thought cargo was loose, dogs barking, ground crew trapped, etc.........................

Very funny actually,


Slug

 

[a320drivr]

Its the PTU. It kicks in when it senses a 500lb split between hydraulic systems. #1 engine powers the green system and #2 engine powers the yellow system so if one engine is shut off the PTU kicks in to power the other system unless the yellow electric pump is on which will cause the PTU not to engage to power the yellow system.

 

[SWAdude]

It sounds like they did what they were supposed to do. They called maintenance and completed the paperwork. They aren't supposed to just crossbleed start and write it up later. NWA doesn't do enroute MELs and can't fly with an open write up. I don't know why it took that long to MEL the item, maybe they were waiting on an external air cart to provide air for the start.

It isn't all that uncommon to reboot up the airbus.

Sounds to me like it was slow contract maintenance.....

I suspected that they might not have enroute write ups. Which (if true) is mind boggling. There were over a hundred pax that had to spend the night. Then they were put on flights the next day that were taking up additional potential revenue. Who knows how many thousands of dollars that cost the company.

Why on earth would any company not have the option to defer once pushed from the gate?

Contract maintenance was there in short order. This delay seemed unneccesary.

 

[Superbird]

Who knows how many thousands of dollars that cost the company.

Why on earth would any company not have the option to defer once pushed from the gate?

SWAdude,

Different POI/FSDO's approve different procedures. Kinda like how SWA crews don't do walk-arounds on quick turns, rather their 'trained' ground crews are on the look out for damage.

SB

 

[AKAAB]

I can tell you at jetBlue the APU is an enroute MEL that can be deferred by the crew.

Dude - that's the old terminology. It's a Crew Applied MEL (CA-MEL) now.

Cheers!

 

[a320drivr]

Give me a break dude!!! Who cares what you call it except for anal rententive Capt's.

 

[RJones]

Different POI/FSDO's approve different procedures. Kinda like how SWA crews don't do walk-arounds on quick turns, rather their 'trained' ground crews are on the look out for damage.

Not quite sure what your talking about Superbird. Do you do a walk around everytime you get to the gate with the same plane. That would seem to me to be labor intensive and a waste of time.

I’m not sure I understand your Sinicism towards the way we operate here at SWA … rather efficient with regards to the current and past industry trends.

 

[SWAdude]

Who knows how many thousands of dollars that cost the company.

Why on earth would any company not have the option to defer once pushed from the gate?

SWAdude,

Different POI/FSDO's approve different procedures. Kinda like how SWA crews don't do walk-arounds on quick turns, rather their 'trained' ground crews are on the look out for damage.

SB

SB,

I have worked for six airlines of which three are majors and all of them had pilot deferred maintenance procedures. As I witnessed possibly the other day, it is terribly inefficient without them.

I would still like to here back from someone that flies for NWA.

SWAdude

 

[FarginDooshbahg]

Dude,

Here's a tip for you. Why don't you worry about your own operation and your own airplane and keep your nose out of other companies business. There's nothing worse than a "Captain" who thinks they know everything about everyone else's operation. MYOB. If you don't like the way NWA does business, then don't buy tickets on them anymore. I'm sure they would cry over the loss of your business.

 

[SWAdude]

Hey Dooshbahg,

Enough said.

 

[flyingitalian]

Well this is getting particularly ugly.

I have to admit that Im a bit disturbed by my fellow SWA pilots behavior and would urge him to be a bit more polite.

MELs and procedures are universal for the most part, but by aircraft type. An APU write up with MEL might or might not require maintenance depending on what the failure actually was and why the APU failed even at SWA. Dont believe me consult the MEL list that is now even available on SWALIFE. You see the problem with being a Monday morning quarterback, especially from the back of the airplane (a particular pet peeve of mine) is you dont know why the APU failed, or why maintenance was called, or why the airplane could not complete the flight on schedule. You have to trust as do all YOUR passengers that the airplane is being operated by a competent crew that will follow procedures and provide their passengers with a safe flight. Perhaps we should just thank the captain for taking the necesary steps to provide safe aircraft operation, and getting you to your destination, late but in one piece.

 

[filejw]

At NWA thing are done at very conservitive level.Have for the 26 yrs I'v been here.Comes right from the top and as they write the check......

 

[Beerme]

I fly the 'bus for NW and can tell you that we CAN & DO have pilot deferred mx. The problem may be why the APU did an auto shutdown? Or maybe there was an existing MEL that required an operating APU (deferred generator for instance). Who knows...only the guys up front...and I'm sure they did the right thing. Sorry you missed your connection...but as they say...$hit Happens.

 

[thruthemurk]

Not quite sure what your talking about Superbird. Do you do a walk around everytime you get to the gate with the same plane. That would seem to me to be labor intensive and a waste of time.

I’m not sure I understand your Sinicism (sic) towards the way we operate here at SWA … rather efficient with regards to the current and past industry trends.

So nothing ever occurs to the outside of your aircraft that you can't tell from the cockpit? Just curious. Second guessing anothers operation is pompous and shows a real lack of class. Every airline has their own approach arrived at by the circumstances they have encountered. Perhaps the majority of other airlines do walk arounds between legs because the undetected birdstrike or tire gone flat has caused them a problem in the past - who knows? It's their right to do what makes sense to them.

No cynicism towards your ops - perhaps you could try the same.

Murk

 

[SWAdude]

I fly the 'bus for NW and can tell you that we CAN & DO have pilot deferred mx. The problem may be why the APU did an auto shutdown? Or maybe there was an existing MEL that required an operating APU (deferred generator for instance). Who knows...only the guys up front...and I'm sure they did the right thing. Sorry you missed your connection...but as they say...$hit Happens.

Thats all was asking. Thanks for responding. I assumed there was a deferred program and just thought I would verify. As you could read in my previous posts I doubted that you wouldn't have one. The whole trip was nice and we were treated very well.

flyingitallion,

Sorry your disturbed. It was only a question on what little information I had.

Some can be so sensitive on such a simple question. I would expect more from a fellow employee. If you are one.

There absolutely was no hidden agenda but what more could I expect from some on this forum.

 

[320AV8R]

SB,

I have worked for six airlines of which three are majors and all of them had pilot deferred maintenance procedures. As I witnessed possibly the other day, it is terribly inefficient without them.

I would still like to here back from someone that flies for NWA.

SWAdude

I'm not sure what actually happened on your flight, but would suspect it might have not been deferable, if they had to return to the gate & de-power the Airbus. If a reset of a specific system off the gate doesn't work, occasionally you're required to de-power the entire plane & start it back up. It can be a pain at times.

If certain items become inoperative after pushback, we can continue to the destination, write them up, & have them fixed. Some items that break after pushback have to be addressed only by Maintenance & not the crew; requiring a return to the gate. Our MEL is quite specific, & most guys don't return to the gate unless it's necessary to comply with the MEL.

 

[flyingitalian]

flyingitallion,

Sorry your disturbed. It was only a question on what little information I had.

Some can be so sensitive on such a simple question. I would expect more from a fellow employee. If you are one.

QUOTE]

Your question started out innocently enough but, deteriorated into a diatribe of critical analysis of other operations. As far as expecting more from a fellow employee, I would expect you to call me out if I was out of line, would you not want the same? We are extremely fortunate at SWA, and our humility got us a long way. I think a little humility in this day and age towards others goes a long long way.

 

[TWA Dude]

Do you do a walk around everytime you get to the gate with the same plane. That would seem to me to be labor intensive and a waste of time.

Just an FYI, all five airlines I've been employed with require exactly that.

 

[flynlow]

Maybe that's the answer all these airlines have been looking for. Once we all stop doing multiple preflights the airlines will become profitable. Yipee, now if I can just get this procedure changed before tommorrow at ATA.

 

[SWAdude]

flyingitallion,

Sorry your disturbed. It was only a question on what little information I had.

Some can be so sensitive on such a simple question. I would expect more from a fellow employee. If you are one.

QUOTE]

Your question started out innocently enough but, deteriorated into a diatribe of critical analysis of other operations. As far as expecting more from a fellow employee, I would expect you to call me out if I was out of line, would you not want the same? We are extremely fortunate at SWA, and our humility got us a long way. I think a little humility in this day and age towards others goes a long long way.

I was only inquiring the fact that based on my experience I had a question of whether there was a deferred maintenance program at NWA. One person alluded to the fact that they did not. After that any response I made still cast doubt on that information. I found it so common place of a program I assumed they did but thought I would try to get the fact. My question was answered so thats it. Very simple. And thanks to all who saw this for what it is and gave their explanations.

As for OUR humility, what on earth would have given you any impression about me and my views on our industries depression on a simple question about operational procedures. You spin this discussion to make it look like I am gloating about my job security!!! I have been furloughed once, faced two other furloughs and worked for a bankrupt carrier. I am one that feels more fortunate than you pal. I got news for you also. We are all in this together. You are way way way off the mark.

By the way, why are you being critical of me and not defending our procedures of preflights. Interesting battle you choose. Thanks for your support. I knew I could count on it.

And WHO is being critical. I bought tickets on NWA because I like NWA. Just a simple operational question and you bring it to a job security question. You choose this path. Not me. I know sh#t happens. I said that in my first post.



Best of luck to all of us in this wonderful but unstable profession.

 

[flyingitalian]

By the way, why are you being critical of me and not defending our procedures of preflights. Interesting battle you choose. Thanks for your support. I knew I could count on it.
.

I know they are great, and everyone I fly with knows they are great and I could care less what the rest of the world thinks.

....and in the interest of keeping family peace and ending this...sorry.

I guess Im a little sensitive when it comes to checkrides from the back.

 

[Clyde]

Is it safe to come back and play in the sandbox now?

 

[NuGuy]

I'm not sure what actually happened on your flight, but would suspect it might have not been deferable, if they had to return to the gate & de-power the Airbus. If a reset of a specific system off the gate doesn't work, occasionally you're required to de-power the entire plane & start it back up. It can be a pain at times.

If certain items become inoperative after pushback, we can continue to the destination, write them up, & have them fixed. Some items that break after pushback have to be addressed only by Maintenance & not the crew; requiring a return to the gate. Our MEL is quite specific, & most guys don't return to the gate unless it's necessary to comply with the MEL.

320AV8R is right on the mark. Some items you can do a crew deferral, others you can't.

Originally Posted by RJones
Do you do a walk around everytime you get to the gate with the same plane. That would seem to me to be labor intensive and a waste of time.

Yup, you bet. Every flight, same plane or no. NWA and the other 2 airlines I've been at were the same way. Even if you weather divert and only get gas, you MUST complete a pre-flight inspection. The FAA has been VERY clear on this.​

​

How SWA gets away without doing them when every other airline in the known universe has to comply has been the subject of much conjecture. But in the end, its none of our business.​

Nu