NWA 1113 Updates

[320AV8R]

TC;

I don't know where you got your imfo but it is wrong. We tried to work out
some type of a flow to our list with Mesaba but it was YOUR mgt that was against it not Nwa or NWA Apla.

Dave B

Dave B-

I heard it from 2 ALPA sources that it was NWA MGMT that killed the flow-through deal. NWA ALPA wanted it to be based on seniority, & NWA MGMT refused; they wanted to select individual pilots to flow through. That killed the deal.

320AV8R

 

[Max Powers]

TC;

I don't know where you got your imfo but it is wrong. We tried to work out
some type of a flow to our list with Mesaba but it was YOUR mgt that was against it not Nwa or NWA Apla.

If you wan't to blame us that's ok but get your facts straight first. I suppose
it's our fault you make $1600 a month?

We have never tried to keep anyone off our lists.

Dave B

Yes we have seen your offers for flow through and they are weak attempts to placate us. ALPA nationals way of saying see we are actually pulling for you when we use your dues to scope you out of any sort of career progression. I understand there is more to it but really your offers for flowthrough are meaningless with out the levraged negotiating behind it and you won't give up jack for us you will sell out your regional fellows in a heartbeat

 

[ultrarunner]

I heard it from 2 ALPA sources that it was NWA MGMT that killed the flow-through deal. NWA ALPA wanted it to be based on seniority, & NWA MGMT refused; they wanted to select individual pilots to flow through. That killed the deal.

I'd support that. Once you let ALPA dicate WHO shows up on property, you have given them WAY too much power.

 

[dbrownie]

Dave B-

I heard it from 2 ALPA sources that it was NWA MGMT that killed the flow-through deal. NWA ALPA wanted it to be based on seniority, & NWA MGMT refused; they wanted to select individual pilots to flow through. That killed the deal.

320AV8R

320;

Maybe it was nwa mgt that killed the deal but Mesaba mgt wanted nothing to do with it, they did not want to "loose" pilots (this was back when other airlines were hiring so what was the dif?)

I know that nwa alpa wanted it based on seniority.

Dave B

 

[IamGumbyDammit]

It was NWA Human Resourses that killed the flow through. They wanted to control who was hired.

 

[ultrarunner]

It was NWA Human Resourses that killed the flow through. They wanted to control who was hired.

That's what HR is there for.

 

[IamGumbyDammit]

That's what HR is there for.

Really?

 

[PCL_128]

That's what HR is there for.

No, HR is there to ask stupid questions that begin with "tell me about a time..." that won't tell anyone how good of a pilot you are. HR is nothing but a bunch of paper pushers that don't know the first thing about hiring pilots. Pilots should hire pilots. Period.

 

[Going2Baja]

If only pilots hired pilots you'd end up with a group of cheap, divorced, beer drinking guys that sit around and talk about the good old days and get nothing done. Wait...that kind of sounds like fun!

 

[Boeingman]

No, HR is there to ask stupid questions that begin with "tell me about a time..." that won't tell anyone how good of a pilot you are. HR is nothing but a bunch of paper pushers that don't know the first thing about hiring pilots. Pilots should hire pilots. Period.

In your case sport, HR hiring was a blessing. Most pilots would have thrown away your resume after seeing your career jumpstarting methods at Gulfstream.

 

[Tank Commander]

Pull your tighty whities out of your crack old boy. He is a pretty smart guy. If the industry had a couple of thousand guy like him back in the day, We might not be as deep in the craper are we are.

 

[Boeingman]

Smart? PFT? $8 hour wage? LMAO

Pull your tighty whities out of your crack old boy. He is a pretty smart guy. If the industry had a couple of thousand guy like him back in the day, We might not be as deep in the craper are we are.

One reason the reason the industry is in the shape it is in today is because of people like him...and you....working for chump change. Mangement knows it, they exploit it and in the end the bar is lowered for all.

 

[PCL_128]

One reason the reason the industry is in the shape it is in today is because of people like him...and you....working for chump change. Mangement knows it, they exploit it and in the end the bar is lowered for all.

You have never answered a simple question I have asked several times: where do you work? There's very few pilots groups that can still act high-and-mightly about holding up the bar nowdays. Have you taken draconian concessions and lowered the bar? If so, then you've got a lot of nerve to criticize the Pinnacle pilots that are holding strong in negotiations and not backing down.

 

[CaptSeth]

If only pilots hired pilots you'd end up with a group of cheap, divorced, beer drinking guys that sit around and talk about the good old days and get nothing done. Wait...that kind of sounds like fun!

Welcome to Indianapolis, thanks for flying ATA....

 

[Boeingman]

You have never answered a simple question I have asked several times: where do you work? There's very few pilots groups that can still act high-and-mightly about holding up the bar nowdays. Have you taken draconian concessions and lowered the bar? If so, then you've got a lot of nerve to criticize the Pinnacle pilots that are holding strong in negotiations and not backing down.

I thought it was obvious....but if not CAL. So what? I walked a picket line for two years trying to hold up the bar. Good enough for you?

Now what about the questions I asked you that you failed to answer. Specifically, your limp excuse that you "realized" your Gulfstream adventure was a "mistake". If so, I ask again did you quit the second you realized it? So is there is a gap in your employment dates? That is, if you can consider jerking gear for $8 an hour "employment". Or did you just want to get the maximum benefit out of Dad's investment and chaulk it up to a "mistake" later? Your connection to Atlanta? Any Eastern in your family by chance?

Pinnacle? WTF are you cackling about now? Care to point out where I said anything about that operation? That is the outfit the two "dudes" were at correct? Besides you'll cave just like the rest of them. Anyone who thinks $8 an hour flying airplanes is adequete will work for anything. You have proven it, management knows it and there are hundreds more out there with stars in their eyes like you waiting to replace you for less money. You are a victim of your own actions.

I criticize people like you who PFT which starts the vicious cycle and is a part of the downward pressure on the industry as a whole. Your problem is that you are just to ignorant to admit it.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

We are willing to take on the PFT people if there was some sort of brand scope. We don't care about that right now, bigger fish to fry, stop fighting. If we had that brand scope, the PFT wouldn't be taking our jobs anyway.

 

[PCL_128]

Specifically, your limp excuse that you "realized" your Gulfstream adventure was a "mistake". If so, I ask again did you quit the second you realized it? So is there is a gap in your employment dates? That is, if you can consider jerking gear for $8 an hour "employment". Or did you just want to get the maximum benefit out of Dad's investment and chaulk it up to a "mistake" later.

I didn't hear about the whole "PFT" thing until I found this website, and that was when I was already done with the FO program at GIA. Until then, I just thought of GIA as a normal career path. After all, all of my Delta mainline friends had just said "get that seniority number quick." With all of the "FO programs" and "bridge programs" out there, it just seemed normal. After finding this site and reading it for a while, it slowly started to sink in that PFT was certainly not a good thing. That being said, there is a gap in employment. I was a flight instructor in between GIA and Pinnacle.

Your connection to Atlanta? Any Eastern in your family by chance?

Sorry, no EAL connection in the family. I'm the first pilot from either side of my family. I did live in Atlanta during the '89 strike, though. All of the family friends were rEAL pilots. Not SCABs.

Pinnacle? WTF are you cackling about now? Care to point out where I said anything about that operation?

Several hundred Pinnacle pilots came from GIA. When you attack GIA, you attack a large portion of the PCL pilot group. Everyone likes to say that former PFT'ers will just bend over and take it, but the fact is that the Pinnacle pilot group is extremely militant and steadfast, including the GIA pilots.

Besides you'll cave just like the rest of them. Anyone who thinks $8 an hour flying airplanes will work for anything. You have proven it, management knows it and there are hundreds more out there with stars in their eyes like you waiting to replace you for less money. You are a victim of your own actions.

I look forward to proving you wrong.

 

[Boeingman]

A lot of justifications

I didn't hear about the whole "PFT" thing until I found this website, and that was when I was already done with the FO program at GIA. Until then, I just thought of GIA as a normal career path. After all, all of my Delta mainline friends had just said "get that seniority number quick." With all of the "FO programs" and "bridge programs" out there, it just seemed normal. After finding this site and reading it for a while, it slowly started to sink in that PFT was certainly not a good thing. That being said, there is a gap in employment. I was a flight instructor in between GIA and Pinnacle.


Sorry, no EAL connection in the family. I'm the first pilot from either side of my family. I did live in Atlanta during the '89 strike, though. All of the family friends were rEAL pilots. Not SCABs.


Several hundred Pinnacle pilots came from GIA. When you attack GIA, you attack a large portion of the PCL pilot group. Everyone likes to say that former PFT'ers will just bend over and take it, but the fact is that the Pinnacle pilot group is extremely militant and steadfast, including the GIA pilots.


I look forward to proving you wrong.

Hmmmmm...I smell something odd......like bullcaca. GIA a normal career path?

First off, if you were in the company of any rEAL pilots, they would of told you what common knowledge of the scab that ran the joint. That should of turned into what a disgrace to the profession it is to whore yourself for a few bucks an hour to build time.

Second, any of your Delta friends telling you to "get that seniority number quick" I doubt meant pft'g or scabbing for that matter. Shall I continue?

As far as your buddies at Pinnacle more power to them. However like I keep telling you, try as you might you can not wash the stain of opportunism from your skin. Just like a scab can not cleanse himself of the damage he has done to the industry or the profession.

See PCL, in time those like you will be waiting in the wings to do your job for a dollar less and and fly an hour more to do it. What irks me about you is your arrogance and hypocrisy. It is a joke listening to someone like you whining about JS denials or launching into one of your ALPA propoganda campaigns when the foundation for your career was built on opportunism. Just like a scab.

 

[PCL_128]

First off, if you were in the company of any rEAL pilots, they would of told you what common knowledge of the scab that ran the joint. That should of turned into what a disgrace to the profession it is to whore yourself for a few bucks an hour to build time.

I wasn't around any rEAL pilots at the time I was looking into flight schools. I left Atlanta in '96 and moved to Orlando. The only pilots I kept in touch with were Delta guys that were close family friends.

Second, any of your Delta friends telling you to "get that seniority number quick" I doubt meant pft'g or scabbing for that matter. Shall I continue?

Actually, many of them had never heard the term "PFT," and the rest of them still don't care. Most mainline guys don't have a clue what's going on down at the "commuters" and they don't care. You are the exception, not the rule. Most mainline pilots really don't care about PFT. This is evident by the fact that GIA pilots have gone to work for every major airline in the country. None of them ran into any trouble during their interviews as some like DE727UPS would have everyone believe. It just doesn't happen. That doesn't make PFT right of course, but if your only industry contacts are mainline pilots, then you won't have any idea that PFT isn't just the way it's done. If asked, 90% of the mainline guys out there would tell a newbie to go to GIA because it saves time. They don't really consider the implications on the industry. I jumpseated on UPS a couple of weeks ago and I was talking to one of the senior CAs. He was telling me about his daughter that was just finishing her CFI training. He said, and I quote: "I keep telling her that she needs to do whatever it takes to start building some good turbine time. Even if it means offering to pay for her own training, that's what she needs to do to get started." You see, most guys at the majors are completely clueless about these things or simply don't care.

 

[xjhawk]

finally telling that PCL 128 ..where to shuv.....

In your case sport, HR hiring was a blessing. Most pilots would have thrown away your resume after seeing your career jumpstarting methods at Gulfstream.

i wish that person would maybe think and research about things he/she posts.....alll that pinnaple hype bothers me.....once again..i have frineds there...and mean not one ounce of disrespect for the good ones over there..

 

[B727-100QF]

I have flown with one such GIA pilot here. She does a fine job. You are right, I could care less were you came from just as long as you can do your job safely and professionally.

 

[Lear70]

If asked, 90% of the mainline guys out there would tell a newbie to go to GIA because it saves time. They don't really consider the implications on the industry. I jumpseated on UPS a couple of weeks ago and I was talking to one of the senior CAs. He was telling me about his daughter that was just finishing her CFI training. He said, and I quote: "I keep telling her that she needs to do whatever it takes to start building some good turbine time. Even if it means offering to pay for her own training, that's what she needs to do to get started." You see, most guys at the majors are completely clueless about these things or simply don't care.

And there you have it. THAT is EXACTLY what PART the problem is. No one at the top stops to THINK that it all begins at the bottom.

Part of our problems in this industry are fares. But the "Lowering the Bar" problem we have is cased by people just getting into this industry; it's really simple math. If the NOOBs weren't willing to PFT, we wouldn't have any places with no pay during training, no hotel during training, no per diem during training. We also wouldn't have starting pay rates of $12, $14, $16 per hour. It's these people who keep taking the job under these slave conditions who are causing the problem.

If the bottom pay rates were $30 an hour with full pay from day one, it would stand to reason that the industry NORM would also include higher Captain rates, say around $80-$90 an hour instead of $60.

Continue following the trend... if the pay rates were 50% higher overall for ALL employees at the regional level, NWA management wouldn't be pushing so hard for NewCo and there wouldn't be the threat of loss of additional thousands of jobs through outsourcing - there would be no cost benefit.

"Raising the bar" starts at the bottom. I've been saying for YEARS we need to get people out into the colleges and flight schools on an anti-PFT campaign. But if we have major airline daddys telling their little girls that "It's alright to PFT if it gets you there faster", I wonder if those daddys will also explain to their little girls 15 years later why she can't break 6 figures at 40 years old with 3 kids because pay just kept going down, and down, and down...

If you don't think part of the problems with this industry start at the bottom, you need to get your head out of the sand... or your a*s.

 

[Boeingman]

More rationalizations and tainted ice cream

I wasn't around any rEAL pilots at the time I was looking into flight schools. I left Atlanta in '96 and moved to Orlando. The only pilots I kept in touch with were Delta guys that were close family friends.


Actually, many of them had never heard the term "PFT," and the rest of them still don't care. Most mainline guys don't have a clue what's going on down at the "commuters" and they don't care. You are the exception, not the rule. Most mainline pilots really don't care about PFT. This is evident by the fact that GIA pilots have gone to work for every major airline in the country. None of them ran into any trouble during their interviews as some like DE727UPS would have everyone believe. It just doesn't happen. That doesn't make PFT right of course, but if your only industry contacts are mainline pilots, then you won't have any idea that PFT isn't just the way it's done. If asked, 90% of the mainline guys out there would tell a newbie to go to GIA because it saves time. They don't really consider the implications on the industry. I jumpseated on UPS a couple of weeks ago and I was talking to one of the senior CAs. He was telling me about his daughter that was just finishing her CFI training. He said, and I quote: "I keep telling her that she needs to do whatever it takes to start building some good turbine time. Even if it means offering to pay for her own training, that's what she needs to do to get started." You see, most guys at the majors are completely clueless about these things or simply don't care.

Keep talking sport. One day, deep down you might actually believe this stuff. Also any self respecting major airline pilot would tell their kids to avoid this industry like the plauge.

Remember my ice cream analogy PCL, once "crap" (I prefer a more stern word that begins with s) gets into ice cream, no matter how hard you try to strain it out, it is forever runied. Those who whored themselves for a few bucks an hour and PFT'd is like that tainted ice cream. The damage is done because management knows that there will be more like you with starts in their eyes to fly jets.

My only consolation is to watch guys like you eventually become a victim of your own career jumpstart methods from others looking to do your job for a dollar less and fly an hour longer to do it. I don't buy any of your excuses or logic. I think you damned well knew right from the start what you were doing, but you just wanted that shortcut and you sold your soul to do it. Or should I say Dad and Mom paid for you to sell your soul?

BTW, I am not clueless and I do care. There are a lot more of us like myself than you think, or are foolish enough to to believe do not exist.

 

[Boeingman]

I have flown with one such GIA pilot here. She does a fine job. You are right, I could care less were you came from just as long as you can do your job safely and professionally.

That is not the point. It is not about ability, it is about integrity.

 

[Boeingman]

i wish that person would maybe think and research about things he/she posts.....alll that pinnaple hype bothers me.....once again..i have frineds there...and mean not one ounce of disrespect for the good ones over there..

Good point. As pilots we are far to quick to judge guilt by association.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

You know doctors hire doctors, and lawers hire lawers, management hires pilots. What do you expect, we can't control people from not PFT'ing, we can discourge it but thats it. Until we stop hiring people like this, we will not stop it. Again however, this all goes back to brand scope, the one thing that will fix all our problems.

 

[Going2Baja]

DAY SEVEN OF THE 1113(c) BANKRUPTCY HEARING
The bankruptcy hearing resumed today at 09:25 am. PFAA attorney Lee Seham continued his cross examination of Michael Becker, Senior VP of Human
Resources and Labor Relations. Becker claimed that NWA has difficulties
attracting higher yield passengers on its trans-pacific flights due to lack of Asian flight attendants. Consequently, NWA must hire approximately 800 foreign nationals, replacing 30 percent of existing NWA flight attendants.
Becker also claimed that since these foreign nationals would be NWA employees, they could not technically be considered "outsourced labor."


Following Becker, NWA Senior Financial Planning Analyst Willy Vargas testified to explain the company use of computer modeling in predicting Flight Attendant costs. Seham’s extensive cross-examination questioned the accuracy of Vargas’ input assumptions, which thereby yielded inaccurate results. Seham challenged Vargas’ interesting assertion that increased F/A productivity actually yields increased overall F/A costs. NWA subsequently rested its case.


After lunch, ALPA called Captain Bill Dollaway, Chairman of the MEC Negotiating Committee to the stand. His testimony began with a review of the structure of ALPA from the local to the national level. Dollaway has served as NWA ALPA Negotiating Committee Chairman since January of 2000.
The following are some of the highlights of his testimony:


MEDICAL: Dollaway described how pilot’s mandatory retirement at age 60 makes pension and medical benefits vitally important. He also described the importance of pilot sick leave benefits due to the FAA medical restrictions when operating commercial aircraft. Dollaway added that NWA does not provide pilots with any disability insurance.


NSTAR: Dollaway said that negotiations have been going on virtually "24/7"
since January 7. Unfortunately, substantial differences remain. He stated that management has showed absolutely no interest in ALPA’s Nstar proposal, claiming that the larger costs associated with operating larger aircraft would ultimately creep into a small jet operation ("mainline creep"). This claim ignored ALPA’s offer to accept industry average wages for Nstar, while accepting binding arbitration if an agreement could not be reached.
Management has subsequently defended its position by claiming that NWA is "a large aircraft operator and does not possess the expertise necessary to operate small jets efficiently." Dollaway’s response was "that either we are an airline that knows how to operate airplanes -- or we’re not."


DB PENSION PLAN: Dollaway stated that the Company’s business plan does not include the potential cost savings from a DB plan distressed termination, and should that occur NWA pilots are entitled to recover the loss of such a
large benefit. As presented in earlier testimony, management believes that
NWA is entitled to ALL benefits derived from a distressed termination, valued in the hundreds of millions of dollars. From a personal perspective, if Dollaway’s DB plan is terminated his benefit would decrease to $2500 per month after 22 years of service.


FRAGMENTATION: Dollaway stated that today, mergers and acquisitions are
the greatest threat to our jobs. "We don’t want to see our flying sold off after we give concessions to save it. At least have protections for pilots to go with the flying," he stated


BLOCK HOUR GUARANTEE: This ALPA proposal was modeled after the UAL pilot’s bankruptcy contract. It provides a core level of protection in the event that NWA shrinks the airline. Management remains firmly against this.


EQUITY: In response to ALPA’s request for equity, management’s position continues to be that equity is "wholly inappropriate to grant employees
equity in bankruptcy." Dollaway pointed out that equity has been awarded
in almost every modern restructuring, in or out of bankruptcy.


During cross-examination Brian Leitch, NWA’s lead bankruptcy counsel, attempted to isolate individual differences in the proposals of management and ALPA, implying that a pilot might chose to strike over a single issue.
Dollaway responded that "nobody goes on strike for one issue -- it’s the package." By the end of the cross-examination, Leitch was reduced to asking Dollaway such germane questions as "Do you know what your personal
pilot CASM is?" Dollaway replied that he did not.

 

[zonker]

It's like these NWA lawyers aren't even trying. They know they don't have to.

Seham challenged Vargas’ interesting assertion that increased F/A productivity actually yields increased overall F/A costs. NWA subsequently rested its case.

"Well, that was stupid claim...but we gave it a shot, I guess there's nothing left to talk about here."

Management has subsequently defended its position by claiming that NWA is "a large aircraft operator and does not possess the expertise necessary to operate small jets efficiently."

:laugh:

 

[U-I pilot]

Anybody at a major who complains that young, low-time pilots (like myself) take jobs for too low pay I ask this: If you were in the same position, (coming out of college with little money, trying to get out of the house, trying to keep flying, trying to gain good experience to advance your career) would you take these jobs? Knowing full well the implications of accepting the job doesn't change the fact that other people will do it. So if you say no, make a stand and say that you wont work for that....BIG DEAL....100 other people just interviewed and now you don't gain that experience.
If you decide not to take that job, when do you take a job that will advance your career? When the pay comes back up??? You might wait a lifetime.....

Be happy you are at a major and flying at all. If you were in a low-timers shoes, offered a job for low-pay, on a new aircraft that would allow you to gain experience.... why should you not take it? (please dont just say because it degrades the industry...because if you dont take it the problem is no better off than before...)
My .02

 

[Lear70]

Be happy you are at a major and flying at all. If you were in a low-timers shoes, offered a job for low-pay, on a new aircraft that would allow you to gain experience.... why should you not take it? (please dont just say because it degrades the industry...because if you dont take it the problem is no better off than before...)
My .02

Sorry, but you don't get to have it both ways. You can't just throw a question out there like that then tell people not to respond with the obvious answer.

The fact that you KNOW it's wrong and that you know what the right answer WAS to decry it only makes it that much worse.

ABSOLUTELY you should say NO. I did. When Pinnacle was Express Airlines I they offered me a right seat job when I had about 900 hours IF I would pay for my training; I turned it down cold. Some of my buddies from MTSU didn't and then they moved on to places like United, Delta, USAirways, Northwest... then they got furloughed, all while I was making my way (and making more average $$$) without become a scum-sucking bottom feeder.

When I came here to Pinnacle, I refused the job until they offered me to start in the left seat in the aircraft AND to pay for my hotel and per diem in training because I have no intention of accepting what they were offering for the right seat. No way, no how, thankyouverymuchbutfu*koff.

It CAN be done.

The problem is that one guy like you says yes, then the next guy, then the next guy, using the rationalization that "since everyone else is doing it I guess I should too." There are over 6,000 rapes every day, are you going to go and get some because "if you don't, someone else will"?

If ALL of the low-time people stood fast and made a stand, they'd have to change things. Can't run an airline without pilots. But unfortunately, there's too many whores out there just waiting in line "because if I don't take it, someone else will"...

So here's to you, Mr. Regional Airline Pilot Guy.