NWA 1113 Updates

[Tank Commander]

When I came here to Pinnacle, I refused the job until they offered me to start in the left seat in the aircraft AND to pay for my hotel and per diem in training because I have no intention of accepting what they were offering for the right seat. No way, no how, thankyouverymuchbutfu*koff.

Rich you really crack me up sometimes!

Next time we are in the crew room, you've got to tell me about your arbitrations with H/R.

 

[Lear70]

Rich you really crack me up sometimes!

Next time we are in the crew room, you've got to tell me about your arbitrations with H/R.

It was actually "negotiations" when I was doing my initial interview.

All the street Captains went through it. At the AIR, Inc career fair HR reps told all the guys with good turbine PIC time that they needed Captains, would pay hotel and per diem, just come on out and interview.

Once you got to the interview, they would try to come up with reasons NOT to give you those things. "Well, we really like you but since you ONLY have 1,500 PIC Turbine and we really need 2,000, can you start as an F/O? Upgrade would be REALLY quick", or "Since you only have TURBOPROP PIC, we can't pay your hotel and per diem".

Bottom line: we weren't willing to come here under any other circumstances EXCEPT what they had originally promised, we got what we negotiated. Some guys fell for it and didn't get hotel and per diem or got hired as F/O's, most of us didn't and got the full enchillada.

This place isn't worth working at as a new-hire F/O, I don't know how you guys do it, I really don't.

 

[E120ASA]

Sorry but it looks, as if main line is over except for int. flying, They don't care about people on furlough. Sorry they’re out of a job. It is cheaper to out score than have the company pay the Benees. The senior guy and gals will go for this only to save their assets, that is the bad part.

 

[U-I pilot]

ABSOLUTELY you should say NO. I did. When Pinnacle was Express Airlines I they offered me a right seat job when I had about 900 hours IF I would pay for my training; I turned it down cold. Some of my buddies from MTSU didn't and then they moved on to places like United, Delta, USAirways, Northwest... then they got furloughed, all while I was making my way (and making more average $$$) without become a scum-sucking bottom feeder.

When I came here to Pinnacle, I refused the job until they offered me to start in the left seat in the aircraft AND to pay for my hotel and per diem in training because I have no intention of accepting what they were offering for the right seat. No way, no how, thankyouverymuchbutfu*koff.

It CAN be done.

The problem is that one guy like you says yes, then the next guy, then the next guy, using the rationalization that "since everyone else is doing it I guess I should too." There are over 6,000 rapes every day, are you going to go and get some because "if you don't, someone else will"?

If ALL of the low-time people stood fast and made a stand, they'd have to change things. Can't run an airline without pilots. But unfortunately, there's too many whores out there just waiting in line "because if I don't take it, someone else will"...

So here's to you, Mr. Regional Airline Pilot Guy.

To start, Im not a "Regional Airline Pilot guy" yet so you can sing the song to someone else...

Ok, Ill go out on a limb for this one. Say I refuse a Job as you say I absolutely should. Say I even convince 5 of my CFI buddies to also reject such offers. And each of them convinces 5 people and so on for multiple levels. My logic is that there is always someone lower than me who WOULD. The airlines will exploit that, I will STILL not have a job and we have come nowhere. I legitimately want a job in aviation so leaving the industry is not an option in my mind. You say all us low timers should stand up and reject. I agree, but if I am the only one fighting the battle, its not worth it. How do you propose we unite every low timer from the PFTer to (insert college here) to FBO flyer?
All input welcome.

 

[Tank Commander]

It's about positioning. In the down turn of the industry that comes about every 8-10 years bearing on economics, the pinch on salary and benefits happens. The month prior to 9-11 the down swing of the industry was coming. You can search the INTERNET for all kinds of articles on the time and subject. 9-11 came and accelerated the down turn and deepen the hole. BK protection has also helped dig it deeper. Eventually airlines will be back to turning profit that they can't hide and the turn will be back upward. Positioning as a pilot is what you must look at. Where do you want to be when the upward turn starts? U-I pilot, your absolutely right. Someone will take that job at low wage. To gain the experience and put the time in his log book. He will be in that position when the upturn starts that you or I could have been in. Lear70 is and always has been pissed about pft'ers and low wage takers, understandably so. In the military we use to get pissed when some enlisted guy got promoted because he was not in the motor pool helping with the tank but taking college courses at the ed center during working hours. You and I need to manage our own careers. Get the time you need in your logbook and the experience required to more on. be where you want to be when the upswing starts. Economics and time will take care of the rest.

 

[General Lee]

Sorry but it looks, as if main line is over except for int. flying, They don't care about people on furlough. Sorry they’re out of a job. It is cheaper to out score than have the company pay the Benees. The senior guy and gals will go for this only to save their assets, that is the bad part.

Say what? Yeah, ok, LAX to DTW carrying 230 passengers (normally a 757-300) will go to RJs? What? You are wrong. Passenger numbers are expected to go UP in the future, with more people travelling by air. You think it will all be on RJs? Do you think mainline will give up A320s to keep some jobs on the 747 side? Everyone at ALPA knows that it is NOW the time to draw a line, and NW and DL will do that. Don't expect mainline planes at the regionals. Even USAir/AWA pilots shot down CHQ's request to fly E190s for USAir.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[U-I pilot]

Tank Commander-
Nice post....That IS what it really comes down to. I think we all look forward to the upswing again!

 

[xjhawk]

wow...its amazing that these idiots can say that its the CFI who should fix the industry........refuse a job? who in their right mind would do that...i made 12 grand a year working as a CFI, why wouldn't I accept a 17 grand (top end making 85 hours a month for 12 months) flying at a regional. Thats why i place this race for the bottom soully at ALPA's door. Its their job to set the standard, they are our F'ing UNION! THEy are our union once again THEY ARE OUR UNION! set the standard......anyone who accepts less is a scab and deserves not to have a further career in the ALPA scope of things... IE no major career........that will get the attention of the young impressional pilots......because there is this thought that they will accpet a low pay for a future at the major or even a quick upgrade....thats bull#$%^



THE blame.....the responsibiity is on ALPA>>>....yes...i am buzzed right now.......but my mind is clear......even on this issue......

 

[Lear70]

wow...its amazing that these idiots can say that its the CFI who should fix the industry........refuse a job? who in their right mind would do that...i made 12 grand a year working as a CFI, why wouldn't I accept a 17 grand (top end making 85 hours a month for 12 months) flying at a regional. Thats why i place this race for the bottom soully at ALPA's door. Its their job to set the standard, they are our F'ing UNION! THEy are our union once again THEY ARE OUR UNION! set the standard......anyone who accepts less is a scab and deserves not to have a further career in the ALPA scope of things... IE no major career........that will get the attention of the young impressional pilots......because there is this thought that they will accpet a low pay for a future at the major or even a quick upgrade....thats bull#$%^



THE blame.....the responsibiity is on ALPA>>>....yes...i am buzzed right now.......but my mind is clear......even on this issue......

Wow.

Amazing how easily the new generation of pilots coming through the door won't accept responsibility for their own actions.

Oh yeah, just blame ALPA and, for that matter, blame the President for creating a bad economy, blame Congress for not passing stronger bankruptcy or pension protection laws, it's all everyone else's fault.

Here's a hint, dipwit, ALPA starts with YOU. The strength of ANY union is in its member's willingness to hold the line. When you've already caved in on your PERSONAL ethics, why do you think ANYONE believes you will stand the line when it comes to a strike? Oh yeah, that's right, you guys signed for CRJ rates LOWER THAN OURS last contract. Raising the bar? Please...

You're the kind of person who, if they lost their job, would run over to G0Jets and smile all the way, saying "Look, I still have a job!"

And Tank, you're right, but I just haven't learned that "forgive and forget" thing yet.

 

[Tank Commander]

I've met very few new guys making 1600 a month that say "I can't afford to lose this job". Rich, you need to start looking at the guy that knows he can't get hired anywhere else and is lucky to be at a regional. The mid-careerist with a wife and mortgage. He will be the one that lowers the bar and sign a $hity contract.

 

[gnx99]

Wow.

Amazing how easily the new generation of pilots coming through the door won't accept responsibility for their own actions.

What do consider the "new generation" of pilots. 5 years? 10 years? Hasn't regional FO starting pay been bad for decades?

 

[Lear70]

I've met very few new guys making 1600 a month that say "I can't afford to lose this job". Rich, you need to start looking at the guy that knows he can't get hired anywhere else and is lucky to be at a regional. The mid-careerist with a wife and mortgage. He will be the one that lowers the bar and sign a $hity contract.

In a lot of ways, you're absolutely correct.

Unfortunately, I've also flown with some F/O's who have guaranteed interviews, courtesy of "daddy", at several majors as soon as they get their time. They've come right out and said they don't care what the next contract has as long as we get more jets and they get to upgrade, get their time, and get out.

Unfortunately, I also understand it means those guys will never, ever understand the meaning of solidarity or having to really and truly work for it. I wish them job adversity at SOME point so they can have a little respect for the people who aren't so lucky and have to work their butts off for those kinds of contacts.

So we have just enough of a mix of people here at Pinnacle to really cause a problem. 10% of the senior guys who won't risk what they have because they have no intention of ever flying anywhere else, 10% of the guys you were talking about who will vote in anything that's current book or better just to avoid adversity and keep food on the table (because they're not willing to save up for their strike fund), and the other 10% of the FNG's who will sign anything to upgrade.

That's almost 1/3 of our pilots with a guaranteed "YES" vote at the first thing management throws our way. Couple that with 3 years of crap treatment from management, carrot / stick / whipsaw maneuvers and losing aircraft, and the promise of a brighter future and another 20% votes "YES" and we're screwed.

I'm sure that's what management is counting on...

PS: GenX, the "next generation" of pilots come in waves every time the industry goes through a growth spurt and hiring cycle which, at the regional level, seems to run about every 5 years. The guys who have finished their commercial multi ratings and gotten jobs here in the last 5 years are "the next generation". Given that a LARGE percentage of them did it through some time of PFT situation, we now have a LARGE group of people I worry don't have the respect for this career to keep us from circling further down the proverbial toilet bowl.

 

[800Dog]

In a lot of ways, you're absolutely correct.

Unfortunately, I've also flown with some F/O's who have guaranteed interviews, courtesy of "daddy", at several majors as soon as they get their time. They've come right out and said they don't care what the next contract has as long as we get more jets and they get to upgrade, get their time, and get out.

Unfortunately, I also understand it means those guys will never, ever understand the meaning of solidarity or having to really and truly work for it. I wish them job adversity at SOME point so they can have a little respect for the people who aren't so lucky and have to work their butts off for those kinds of contacts.

So we have just enough of a mix of people here at Pinnacle to really cause a problem. 10% of the senior guys who won't risk what they have because they have no intention of ever flying anywhere else, 10% of the guys you were talking about who will vote in anything that's current book or better just to avoid adversity and keep food on the table (because they're not willing to save up for their strike fund), and the other 10% of the FNG's who will sign anything to upgrade.

That's almost 1/3 of our pilots with a guaranteed "YES" vote at the first thing management throws our way. Couple that with 3 years of crap treatment from management, carrot / stick / whipsaw maneuvers and losing aircraft, and the promise of a brighter future and another 20% votes "YES" and we're screwed.

I'm sure that's what management is counting on...

PS: GenX, the "next generation" of pilots come in waves every time the industry goes through a growth spurt and hiring cycle which, at the regional level, seems to run about every 5 years. The guys who have finished their commercial multi ratings and gotten jobs here in the last 5 years are "the next generation". Given that a LARGE percentage of them did it through some time of PFT situation, we now have a LARGE group of people I worry don't have the respect for this career to keep us from circling further down the proverbial toilet bowl.

Wow, well said!

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Pilot compensation is based soley around what the senior guys are willing to take. If productivity had anything to do with it, a 747 captain would be making $500,000 plus. Actually, I think most of the senior guys are out of touch with reality. They sold the profession out, the junior guys coming in have no choice. It's either take this or find another career, we let that happen. Can't wait until we let Mesa have some airbuses.