NWA 1113 Updates

[kjokmo]

Any NWA pilots want to explain how they can hold out on 76 seat flying when all the other majors have given up on it? Any judge would see that this is an industry average and allow it to be imposed. If you guys are willing to strike over an issue that is dead at every other Major, well, that seems a little strange to me. How many of the NWA pilots are willing to give up their pensions to save something that has been lost at every other carrier? This doesn't seem like the right issue to be fighting. Keep your pay and have national set 76 seats as the cutoff for ALL MAJORS. I'm not beating the NWA guys up, I'm only pointing out that the rest of us killed this issue already by giving in on 76 seat flying. This isn't NWA's fight, this was UAL/US air's fight 2-3 years ago.

Let me guess, you're a regional pilot or not an airline pilot at all? Just give it up, boy thats the easy way. You haven't done your research very well, do some on American Airlines and then report back.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

What's with the magic "76" number? The Avro would be 85 seats (not that I expect it to stay at this point). Aren't the larger Canadairs either 70 or 84 seats? Or is there some other plane NWA is trying to bring in that I am missing that holds 76?

 

[Going2Baja]

NWA agreed to scrap their Newco plan if ALPA agrees to let them operate unlimited 76 seaters at the regionals.

I understand this - but my question is now that they are saying it is "off the table" does this mean that the MEC has caved on the 76 seat issue? Why would NWA pull Newco WITHOUT getting something in return?

Baja.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

What's with the magic "76" number? The Avro would be 85 seats (not that I expect it to stay at this point). Aren't the larger Canadairs either 70 or 84 seats? Or is there some other plane NWA is trying to bring in that I am missing that holds 76?

I assume that 76 seats is the average market capacity for the routes the DC-9 is not profitable on. In other words when removing the DC-9 fleet, they will put the 76er on the low capacity type routes, and an A319 or bigger on the higher capacity routes. If NWA gets unlimited 76ers, expect the DC-9's to be gone in a year or so(even though they said they would be around longer)

 

[PHXFLYR]

That's where those of us at the other majors need to get back everything >50 seats.
As for UAL, our previous MEC chairman signed a side letter of agreement with the company to give them an equal number of 70 seaters as mainline aircraft. The rank and file NEVER voted on it. I can think of 2172 pilots who might want to get that little sideletter torn up. It'll be one of my goals when I return to UAL property.

Very nobel thought,but you know that the only way to get that sideletter removed is through the negotiating process once your contract comes up for renewal several years down the road. What will you be willing to give up in exchange for having it removed?

PHXFLYR

 

[CptMurf]

What's with the magic "76" number? The Avro would be 85 seats (not that I expect it to stay at this point). Aren't the larger Canadairs either 70 or 84 seats? Or is there some other plane NWA is trying to bring in that I am missing that holds 76?

Let me introduce to you the Bombardier CRJ-705...
Picture
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/882174/M/
Specs
http://www.bombardier.com/en/3_0/3_1/3_1_1.html

It is a CRJ-900 fuselage with 75 seats. Leading edge devices, bigger engines, and I believe the performance numbers to get into Aspen (ARJ replacement maybe).

 

[CptMurf]

It should also fall under a common type. Just differences training.

 

[jetflier]

Let me introduce to you the Bombardier CRJ-705...
Picture
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/882174/M/
Specs
http://www.bombardier.com/en/3_0/3_1/3_1_1.html

It is a CRJ-900 fuselage with 75 seats. Leading edge devices, bigger engines, and I believe the performance numbers to get into Aspen (ARJ replacement maybe).

That's a nice piece of iron to fly...however, I've had the experience of riding in the back of a full one ,....and it ain't a pleasent experience with 50 in that tube. The 70-90 seaters must be miserable on a long range flight.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

That's a nice piece of iron to fly...however, I've had the experience of riding in the back of a full one ,....and it ain't a pleasent experience with 50 in that tube. The 70-90 seaters must be miserable on a long range flight.

The 70-90 is wider in size than the 50 seaters, it's really not that bad. You can't even bring carry on bags into the 50 seater, the 70 seaters are much better. The ERJ 170 and above are actually comfortable airplanes.

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Well at least on the Comair 70 seat CRJ you still can't bring on the carry on luggage. You think it sux waiting for your bag on a full 50 seater... add 20 more rollaboards to wait for. Oh yea and they still aren't very comfortable to ride on.

 

[Andy]

Very nobel thought,but you know that the only way to get that sideletter removed is through the negotiating process once your contract comes up for renewal several years down the road. What will you be willing to give up in exchange for having it removed?

PHXFLYR

Well, I wouldn't necessarily say that contract negotiation time is the ONLY way to have it removed, but you're likely correct.
As far as what I'm willing to give up, that's irrelevent. It's what the membership is willing to give up.
We've got to stop the job slide from majors to regionals.

 

[PHXFLYR]

Well, I wouldn't necessarily say that contract negotiation time is the ONLY way to have it removed, but you're likely correct.
As far as what I'm willing to give up, that's irrelevent. It's what the membership is willing to give up.
We've got to stop the job slide from majors to regionals.

Yes we do.

PHXFLYR

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Well, I wouldn't necessarily say that contract negotiation time is the ONLY way to have it removed, but you're likely correct.
As far as what I'm willing to give up, that's irrelevent. It's what the membership is willing to give up.
We've got to stop the job slide from majors to regionals.

Will you say NO to flying the 76 seat jets?

 

[Andy]

Will you say NO to flying the 76 seat jets?

I'm a UAL furloughee, so I don't follow your question. If UAL had 70 seaters flying under mainline instead of express, I would've been happy to fly the 70 seater.
I'm not trying to start another mainline vs regional turf war, I just want us, the pilots, to stop allowing our airlines to contract out larger equipment to the regionals. The next step that they'll be pushing for is sending 90/110 seaters to the regionals. After that, everything below 150 seats. All of this will continue to result in a continuing erosion of the QOL and compensation for pilots.
The line was 50. The line should have stayed 50. 50 needs to be pushed for again. Personally, I'd like to see the line at 10. Anything over 10 seats flown by mainline.

 

[Going2Baja]

1113 Update

Keep the fight and the faith!

Baja.

=======================================================
I have listed some bullet points on our current 1113c Negotiations, which may help you understand where your elected council representatives stand on this important situation. Please continue to read the daily information distributed by MEC Communications. Court transcripts are available on www.nwaalpa.org.


*NWA pilots (ALPA) have ALWAYS been responsive to requests by Management for economic assistance whenever verified (due
diligence) as necessary.


*NWA pilots (ALPA) were the first (and only labor union) to take pre-Chapter 11 pay concessions in 2004, taking a 15% (+) pay cut in the Bridge Agreement.


*NWA pilots (ALPA) offered additional concessions in early September 2005 in a last ditch effort to help management avoid a Northwest Chapter 11 filing.


*NWA pilots (ALPA) led the Northwest labor effort for 60-day 1113c extensions in November to provide additional time for labor-management-negotiations.


*NWA pilots (ALPA) agreed to an 1113c extension which cut our pay another 23.9% (+) in addition to the 15% (+) conceded the 2004 Bridge Agreement.


*NWA pilots (ALPA) are working for over 40% less than our November 2004 rates; a disproportionate burden, compared to other groups and management.


*NWA pilots (ALPA) have agreed to a freeze of our Defined Benefit Plan (Retirement); which results in a SUBSTANTIALLY reduced benefit for most pilots.


*NWA pilots face an uncertain future, substantially reduced pay, more onerous work rules, and reduced benefits, including a risk of pension plan termination.


*NWA pilots (ALPA) have negotiated in good faith with management to ensure we are COST COMPETITIVE in an industry with expanding low cost carriers.


*NWA pilots are currently working for pay rates that are in most cases below other carriers, even low cost non-union carriers, for comparable equipment.


*NWA management is using the Chapter 11 environment to gut our contract, outsource many of our jobs, and justify more rewards for a failed EMT.


*NWA management is insisting on outsourcing about 20% of our total flying at a time when we expect the number of NWA pilots furloughed to exceed 1000.


*NWA management wants to use OUR scarce financial resources to buy up to 100 airplanes for ANOTHER airline to replace flying reserved for OUR pilots.


*NWA pilots (ALPA) have offered management a competitive, low cost alternative (NStar) which would reserve small jets and jobs for our own NWA pilots.


*The NStar alternative would ensure quality control of the small jet operation and PROFITS for NWA instead of more expensive fee for departure contracts.


*NWA pilots have made SUBSTANTIAL sacrifices, and committed our past, present, and future service to NWA; we will NOT let NWA outsource our jobs.


*NWA management has hired executives who have failed at other carriers; and are now promoting their same failed schemes here at Northwest Airlines.


*Unfortunately, these failed schemes are designed more to provide personal windfalls for executives than contributing to the ultimate success of NWA.


*Instead of a corporate culture of cooperation, NWA management continues to promote their vision of the future; personal gain and labor exploitation.


*The NWA MEC and our Negotiators remain in session in NYC; ready to continue good faith negotiations and a TA, as encouraged by Judge Gropper.


*NWA management appears to be true to their history of delay and overly onerous demands from a pilot group that remains eager to find a solution.


*NWA pilots, simply by being Northwest pilots, are all too familiar with labor confrontation, including the cost and risk, we want a negotiated settlement.


*NWA ALPA has no choice but prepare for the worse case of confrontation with management while working around the clock (in
NYC) to avoid the same.


*There is no doubt that any job action or self-help would be substantially detrimental to the operation and financial stability of Northwest Airlines.


*[NWA pilots (ALPA) reserves all of our LEGAL options in a self-help situation; including the timing and type of a necessary job action.]

 

[Cardinal]

Keep the faith, cobras! Meanwhile alot of really good airplanes are sitting in the dessert: http://www.airliners.net/open.file/995382/L/

 

[007]

Going back to the "every major airline has given 70 seaters away",

I would say every major in bankruptcy has....

Continental and AA (with exceptions) have not.

Food for thought.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

NWA is trying to gut the entire contract in negotiations, not just scope. The ruling the judge will make, is to throw out the entire contract, he is not making changes to it. Once the contract is thrown out NWA has the freedom to do whatever it wants with us, when that happens we will strike. We are not striking over 70 seat aircraft, we are striking over the removal of our contract.

 

[General Lee]

Going back to the "every major airline has given 70 seaters away",

I would say every major in bankruptcy has....

Continental and AA (with exceptions) have not.

Food for thought.

Both of them had flowbacks too. It may have changed now, but the "guarantee" of a job if and when you are furloughed tends to change the minds of a lot of pilots---the junior ones any way. I think a staple would work too, and you might see larger regional jets in the works. If management can't see that, then it won't happen willingly.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[YourPilotFriend]

The staple job is the best way to go about this. If a picket line were to go up at the regionals, this would prevent even mainline pilots from becoming scabs.

 

[zonker]

These guys have no idea how to run an airline. Doug Steenland, Barry Simon and his garbage pail friends only know how to destroy peoples lives and award themselves stock bonuses when it's all over.

Piss on them and piss on everything they do. They're complete scum that deserve nothing. Unfortunately our society and our lawmakers give them every opportunity to enrich themselves.

It's a damn shame.

 

[PCL_128]

The staple job is the best way to go about this.

I agree. A staple job with fences. Instantly furloughing the newly stapled Airlink guys isn't acceptable. Allowing the furloughed pilots to come back (with seniority over the Airlink guys of course) as spots open is the way to go, but a pure staple with instant furlough will never get the agreement of the Airlink pilots that you would have to get. Not that it matters. The NWA NC isn't even trying for a staple job, so this is all academic anyway.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

I agree. A staple job with fences. Instantly furloughing the newly stapled Airlink guys isn't acceptable. Allowing the furloughed pilots to come back (with seniority over the Airlink guys of course) as spots open is the way to go, but a pure staple with instant furlough will never get the agreement of the Airlink pilots that you would have to get. Not that it matters. The NWA NC isn't even trying for a staple job, so this is all academic anyway.

We can't negotiate you guys onto our current contract because you are not flying aircraft against the scoe contract. The absolute worse case scenario would be a third carrier, that would mean NWA pilots get furloughed and XJ/9E will be gone. Mark my words, if NWA brings on a third regional, Mesaba and Pinnacle are both gone. We all have a stake in this, we can not give you guys a staple job with fences. The staple job should be based on date of hire, that's the only fair way I can think of doing it. This is all a dream of course, really management is going to get their way. By the looks of it right now, I think management is expecting a number of pilots to cross the line. We may know by the end of this week, and I think the strike will happen.

 

[Going2Baja]

I so REALLY hope I get a new job next week and don't have to read another post on how NWA is trying to hose it's current and furloughed pilots. This 4 year furlough is SOOOO old. What's next? NewCo, NStar, recall, furlough.....does it even matter anymore?

Fight the fight guys! Better to shut the place down than let the money grubbing mngt. up stairs walk with their million dollar bonuses. If you don't mind furloughees walking the picket lines with you, I'll be the first to sign up.

Baja.

 

[PCL_128]

We can't negotiate you guys onto our current contract because you are not flying aircraft against the scoe contract. The absolute worse case scenario would be a third carrier, that would mean NWA pilots get furloughed and XJ/9E will be gone. Mark my words, if NWA brings on a third regional, Mesaba and Pinnacle are both gone. We all have a stake in this, we can not give you guys a staple job with fences. The staple job should be based on date of hire, that's the only fair way I can think of doing it. This is all a dream of course, really management is going to get their way. By the looks of it right now, I think management is expecting a number of pilots to cross the line. We may know by the end of this week, and I think the strike will happen.

I'm not so sure that management is counting on guys crossing the line. With the shape that Northwest is in, they would need a huge number of pilots crossing the line in order to keep enough of the airline running to avoid almost immediate liquidation. If they only get enough SCABs to keep 20% of the schedule going, then Northwest is still finished within a day or two. I don't really think SCABs are a part of the plan here. They just don't think you guys will walk at all. I'm still hoping for a last minute settlement, but that is looking less and less likely as each day goes by.

 

[Tank Commander]

YPF, here is another perspective. NWA likes to whip-saws every group under it. Labor groups, aircraft lessors, hubs it services, and its regional carriers. I really don't see a 3rd carrier coming in to the picture that flies out side NWA. This carrier could whip saw NWA against its competitors. NWA would not stand for this. The RSP was NWA way of getting 9e and xj to lower their cost. The only viable threat to 9e and xj would be after a merge between NWA and Delta. Then Comair would become a major player. Two years ago NWA wanted the pilot mec to give up 70 seat flying to 9e and xj. The mec rightfully said no. I think if you really look hard though all of the smoke ie the threat of new co, you'll see that is still the objective of management. A week ago when NWA purposed no new co for outsourcing of 76 seat flying and below, THEY TIPPED THEIR HAND. New co is a hollow threat. NWA just enter BK. Then had to ask for an extension to get their plan together. A BK judge would not allow them to spend the money to start a new airline. Oh, they can say we got the money, We have the management in place, all the new A/C are in a hidden bunker under the DTW terminal. If NWA was stabilized and showing a profit, close to coming out of B/K, a New co could be a real threat. I would love to sit down and play poker with some of you mainline guy's. I think I could make some money. They are after concessions from you guys, that your fight. I make 1600.00 a month. If you guy's decide to strike and liquidate NWA so be it. Any other job for me pay wise is a step up. Your pilot group for years has fought hard to keep the regional pilots out of your seniority list. So for you to say we all have a stake in this is kind of funny. Mine is only 1600 a month stake.

PS. Everytime I see "YourPilotFriend" I think of Nancy Grace.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

NWA could have a new regional carrier up and running in 6 months, no need to bring on a third existing carrier. The NewCo will offer flying for 0-100 seat flying at the lowest industry rates. They will offer a flow through up to NWA mainline, and pilots will be lining up around the block at any pay rate. Heck, with the flow through deal, pilots will even PFT. Why would they even want to pay a XJ/9E pilot 17 grand a year?

 

[Tank Commander]

NWA could have a new regional carrier up and running in 6 months, no need to bring on a third existing carrier. The New Co will offer flying for 0-100 seat flying at the lowest industry rates

Show me the money, and a judge willing to let them have it. Benny to BK don't have to pay your bills. Down side, A judge that tells you how often you can wipe your a$$, and how much you can pay for it.

They will offer a flow through up to NWA mainline

Ya right, I can see your MEC rolling right over to let that happen.

Why would they even want to pay a XJ/9E pilot 17 grand a year?

Because they control it. Its their best weapon against mainline pilots and untill you are making 17K a year as a mainline pilot they will keep it.

 

[dbrownie]

Your pilot group for years has fought hard to keep the regional pilots out of your seniority list. So for you to say we all have a stake in this is kind of funny. Mine is only 1600 a month stake.
.

TC;

I don't know where you got your imfo but it is wrong. We tried to work out
some type of a flow to our list with Mesaba but it was YOUR mgt that was against it not Nwa or NWA Apla.

If you wan't to blame us that's ok but get your facts straight first. I suppose
it's our fault you make $1600 a month?

We have never tried to keep anyone off our lists.

Dave B

 

[Tank Commander]

The blame finger can be pointed in all directions. Sorry if it sounded like I was pointing only at you guys. It's not your fault that I make 17K a year. It's the nature of the beast. I'm just building my time to move on. I didn't join the USMC as a gunnery sergeant. I joined as a private with dues to pay and knowledge to gain. I'm back in that boat again. Positioning right now is important during this down turn in the industry. I've and a lot of my fellow pilots have been treated like puppy's sucking on the tit of NWA by pilots in your pilot group. I'm just saying "The milk sucks, and you can have this dog".
Situation 1. You don't strike, I con't to make my 17K a year, build my time, I move on.
Situation 2. You do strike, NWA-9e-XJ shut down, I get job at home flying falcon at 39k a year, build time, I move on.
My point being, to say we all have a stake it this is crazy. I have a lot of friend over at mainline. If NWA liquidates. the market share opens up. Maybe the Airline I move to latter will be more stable because of it. I'm no long a soldier on the battle field. I'm a businessman in the business world. I will manage my carrier. I will not let the industry do it for me.
This is the nature of the beast.