NWA 1113 Updates

[Going2Baja]

NEGOTIATIONS UPDATE / MEC SPECIAL MEETING IN NEW YORK (1/16/06)
NWA MEC Chairman Mark McClain opened the MEC special meeting at 900 a.m. today. He reviewed the day's agenda and discussed message discipline. McClain said the Negotiating Committee will resume talks with NWA management later today.


After McClain's remarks, MEC Negotiating Committee Chairman Bill Dollaway briefed the MEC on the status of negotiations. Dollaway said a tentative agreement (TA) with management has been reached on Section 27 (medical/prescription/dental programs). This TA is still subject to satisfactory completion of an overall collective bargaining agreement, court approval and membership ratification. Dollaway reported that despite the TA on Section 27, ALPA and management remain far apart on scope and many other major contract items.


Dollaway said management informed ALPA it would drop its "Newco" demand in exchange for the ability to outsource flying on an unlimited number of 76-seat and smaller aircraft. ALPA continues to offer to fly 51-100 seat aircraft at competitive costs and can find no economic justification for non-NWA pilots to fly such aircraft. So far, NWA management has expressed no interest in ALPA's fair and industry-competitive NStar proposal.


Following Dollaway's report, the MEC and Negotiating Committee discussed the latest proposals and ALPA's negotiation/litigation strategy in greater depth.


Next, ALPA attorneys Richard Seltzer and Bob Savelson spoke to the MEC about ALPA's litigation strategy and tomorrow's 1113 hearing.


MEC R&I Committee Chairman Jim Mackenzie then briefed the MEC on the provisions of the tentative agreement reached on Section 27. Mackenzie, who also serves as ALPA's representative to the NWA Unsecured Creditors Committee, then briefed the MEC in closed session on activities related to the Creditors Committee.
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Any of you guys watch that Ch 11 DVD that came in the mail ? I think I would rather watch Archie Trammel or the King's....

We'll see what tomorrow brings...

Baja.

 

[81Horse]

We watched the DVD about the guy and his girlfriend who got eaten by grizzly bears, instead -- we didn't want to frighten the kids.

 

[Mesabi Miner]

Wasn't "Grizzly Man" a sweet movie? I enjoyed the heck out of it. Reading Timothy Treadwell's book right now as well. The guy clearly had some issues, but you gotta admit he had b4lls. Watch the special feature on the making of the soundtrack too... It's sweet if you're into music at all. Oh, I'm sorry. Is this an aviation forum?

MM

 

[dbrownie]

NEGOTIATIONS UPDATE / MEC SPECIAL MEETING IN NEW YORK (1/16/06)

Dollaway said management informed ALPA it would drop its "Newco" demand in exchange for the ability to outsource flying on an unlimited number of 76-seat and smaller aircraft. ALPA continues to offer to fly 51-100 seat aircraft at competitive costs and can find no economic justification for non-NWA pilots to fly such aircraft. So far, NWA management has expressed no interest in ALPA's fair and industry-competitive NStar proposal.

Unlimited 76-seat flying to be outsourced?

Not NO!! but Fu@k NO!!

This mgt team is going for the big grab. They probably realized they couldn't
run one company so why start another?

I wish these guys would take their golden chutes and go home so we could
find some one to run our airline.

They clearly don't have any interest in doing so.

Dave B

 

[ultrarunner]

So tell me this:

Today, what is the industry average pay rate on 51 to 100 seat aircraft?

 

[Lawman]

Hey Northwest Pilots. Do not cave. Fight like hell on this. If you go down, you set the bar for the rest of the industry on this. Fight on. We are behind you.

 

[saabservant]

Can someone explain the "Nstar Proposal"? What is in it?
Just curious about what it would mean for 8-12 year saab folks at mesabi...

Thanks...

 

[mynameisjim]

Nstar is the proposal to insource all 51-100 seat flying, to be flown by NWA pilots at regional wages.

 

[A350]

NWA pilots:

I can tell you exactly what NWA management is up to.

They want to outsource as much of your flying as they can....and it has little to do with the fact that you are overpaid, as you are not. It even has little to do with the fact that you are offering industry standard rates on the 50-100 seat market. You could offer them half the standard rate and they won't take it.

The reason? They need to outsource all that expensive OTHER staff. They can't do that to the other union groups (cleaners, baggage, customer service, and yes, even mechanics and attendants) if mainline pilots are flying the jets.

Hence, one of two things will happen. You will let them fly NEWCO and take the jobs you can for your members, or they will get NEWCO anyway and let someone else fly it.

It isn't your pay and bennies that they are after, although that is the root beer on the float. It is the thousands of other employees that get the boot. That is where the buckage is going to come from.

A350

 

[DTW320]

From the MEC hotline today:

...management informed ALPA it would drop its "Newco" demand in
exchange for the ability to outsource flying on an unlimited number of
76-seat and smaller aircraft. ALPA continues to offer to fly 51-100 seat
aircraft at competitive costs and can find no economic justification for
non-NWA pilots to fly such aircraft. So far, NWA management has expressed
no interest in ALPA's fair and industry-competitive NStar proposal.

 

[Andy]

Nstar is the proposal to insource all 51-100 seat flying, to be flown by NWA pilots at regional wages.

I wish that United's MEC had done that instead of giving it away. I'd like to see UAL get back everything >50 seats.

 

[saabservant]

Is there a proposal on the table to put 85 seats in the avros and have mesaba keep them?
Or would they be pulled and made a mainline aircraft?
We are being told by our alleged mgmt. team that we will be a 49 saab fleet, but few really believe them.
Regardless, I'd suggest the goal should be to keep all nwa flying for pilots currently on the property, including pinnacle and xj...allowing a newco to bring in who knows how many additional pilots is nothing but a whipsaw against all three.
There are about 7000 pilots flying northwest aircraft now, over 2000 on the airlink plantation. They don't need anymore. If you guys allow more whipsaw and outsourcing, you deserve the demise that is coming...just an observation...

 

[General Lee]

You forgot about the upcoming merger with Delta and Comair. Even Norman Mineta is hinting about it----hinting that the Gov't wouldn't object.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[320AV8R]

Is there a proposal on the table to put 85 seats in the avros and have mesaba keep them ?

I think the idea has been tossed around, but I thought I saw a press release that said all the AVROs would be parked by the end of '06.

I guess it ain't over 'till it's over.

320AV8R

 

[michael707767]

bizjournals.com
NWA asks court to void labor contracts
Tuesday January 17, 4:06 pm ET

Northwest Airlines Corp. on Tuesday asked a banruptcy judge to void the company's collective bargaining agreements with its pilots and flight attendants.
The bankrupt carrier said it needs to secure $1.4 billion in permanent cost cuts to keep the company operational.
The time has come for Northwest to put in place a business model that is sustainable and realistic," the company said in a statement. "There is really no alternative to achieving competitive labor costs. And there is no more time to wait."
Eagan-based Northwest will ask the bankruptcy court to delay the portion of the hearing related to the ground workers union. The International Association of Machinist and Aerospace Workers, which represents the Northwest's 14,000 ground workers, has agreed to put the airline's latest offer to a vote. The deal would save Northwest $190.4 million a year.
Northwest (Pink Sheets: NWACQ - News) said it has lost more than $4 billion since 2001, and its cash balance had fallen to $1.24 billion at the end of 2005.
Also on Tuesday, the airline will ask the bankruptcy court to approve cuts to the company's retiree benefits.
The pilots union, flight attendants union and retirees' committee have each filed objections with the bankruptcy court. They argue that the Northwest's proposed cuts go beyond what is "necessary" for the company's reorganization and that the airline did not engage in "serious, good faith" negotiations. The flight attendants also contend they were not given all the information needed to evaluate Northwest's proposal.
Published January 17, 2006 by The Business Journal</I>

 

[Uppercrust]

Our thoughts are with you NWA!

 

[miles otoole]

Our thoughts are with you NWA!

Now THAT's what management wants to hear!

 

[YourPilotFriend]

It's highly likely that management thinks the 76 seat airplane is a replacement for the DC9 over the 100 seat model. Otherwise, i'm completely baffeled by this statement.

 

[Clacker]

Ok, here's another opinion.

NW management floats the NEWCO idea fully knowing the visceral response the pilots will give it. (Like waving a flag at a bull.) After months of deadlocked negotiations and hand-wringing amongst the pilots, management announces that they will drop NEWCO for eliminating scope on the larger RJs. More negotiations ensue, and in the end, the pilots end up giving up scope, work rules, and about 800 jobs.... but keep the frozen pension (for now). Management gets what they really wanted anyway, and the union can say: "Well, we took it in the shorts, boys, but we killed NEWCO."
Cynical? No doubt, but I bet it turns out this way....

 

[finnjl]

Unlimited 76-seat flying to be outsourced?

Not NO!! but Fu@k NO!!

This mgt team is going for the big grab. They probably realized they couldn't
run one company so why start another?

I wish these guys would take their golden chutes and go home so we could
find some one to run our airline.

They clearly don't have any interest in doing so.

Dave B

Every other major airline has given up their 70 seat flying to the regional. Delta, United, America West/US Air, American, etc. Why is this such a new issue when NW says they are not going to do it. In my opionion NW has no choice but to get 70 seat flying to the regionals as everyone knows it is dirt cheap. I think it is too late for NW pilots to make a stand as all the other major carriers have already given up there 70 seat flying. How can NW compete with Delta, etc. when they have Republic. etc. flying 70 and 90 seats across the country at cheap rates. I think this has been a long time coming and NW has to do this to stay competitive with everyone else. Now if Delta, American, etc. pilots would have fought hard to keep all flying greater than x amount of seats than NW pilots would have had a leg to stand on. Much to my dismay the industry is already going down that path of regionals flying bigger planes for less pay. With a few exceptions (Comair had pretty decent pay and retirement) stood up and demanded more pay but Delta trashed them and Mesa keeps growing.


I also believe it is not just pilot pay the reason they want this flying to be outsourced. This is why mgt. will not agree for NW pilots to fly these planes at regional rates because they would have to get everyone that has anything to do with these planes to work at regional rates and a lot of NW employees are not going to work for that amount of money. So that is not going to work.

Of course mgt. has the upper hand as a strike by any party would pretty much mean the end of the airline as it was known today. It is going to be though for those folks involved and I hope history does not repeat itself.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

The thing is, the 76 seat aircraft will replace the DC-9s on most routes. Any other routes that need more than 76 seats will be served by the A319 and above. It seems, this was the plan all along. Whats funny is, NWA will probably buy the jets out of their own pocket and lease them like they always do.

Actually it's better to have the 76 seaters flown by the regionals than a 100 seater flown by NewCo. Either way you cut it, NWA will cut those pilot jobs, even if it means reducing the number of aircraft to nothing. Now the question is whether or not we can get the 76 seat regional pilots on the mainline list to stop the career slide.

 

[finnjl]

Personally I hope NW pilots keep all their flying. Lets face no one really goes into this job thinking they want to work at a regional the rest of their lives. That is how we justify working for free with the hopes of one day making real money. Unless some airline stands up and says no we will all be working at a regional one day. A very sad thought.

 

[yaks]

"Every other major airline has given up their 70 seat flying to the regional"

For what it is worth AA has all flying with 70 or more seats except for the few 70 seaters already at Eagle.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

Even if we say no what good is it going to do us? NWA is probably the strongest as far as the pilot unions go. Pilots around are just waiting to see a leagcy carrier fall, however, this will not help their cause. If anything, if a legacy were to fold it would have a negative effect on labor.

 

[Going2Baja]

Day two - Jan 18 Notes

This is the NWA Master Executive Council (MEC) Hotline recorded on Wednesday, Jan. 18, 2006.


There is new information about the second day of the NWA 1113(c) hearing and availability of court transcripts of the hearings.


There is repeat information on a negotiations update, the first day of the 1113 hearing, a NWA MEC special meeting in New York City, and the latest Across the Table publication.


DAY TWO OF THE NWA 1113(C) HEARING (01/18/06)
The MEC met from 800 a.m. to 900 a.m. to receive a Negotiating Committee update and refine strategy before heading to the courthouse for the day’s proceedings. Our negotiators continue to engage management at a separate
location while NWA’s 1113c hearing continues.


Judge Gropper resumed the hearing at 1005a.m. PFAA attorney Lee Seham continued his cross examination of management’s "hired gun" witness David Kasper. Seham continued to probe assumptions made in Kasper’s analysis of NWA labor costs, again highlighting discrepancies and inconsistencies in his conclusions particularly regarding labor cost comparisons involving Southwest Airlines.


During redirect, NWA bankruptcy counsel Brain Leitch, argued that Southwest is a completely different airline than NWA and therefore makes a poor comparator. However, he notably failed to undertake the logical extension of that argument that if Southwest is a poor comparator, then the other LCCs must be as well.


After a lunch break, David Davis, NWA Senior Vice President of Finance took the witness stand, with Mr. Leitch conducting the direct examination. Over the next two hours, Mr. Davis testified regarding NWA’s current financial condition, management’s business plan, and financial projections. Davis’s testimony included a lengthy description of NWA’s route structure, alliances, market share and labor costs. While making repeated reference to USAirways/America West as the appropriate comparative model for labor cost targeting, his testimony continued to advance a cost-reduction plan that basically "cherry picks" the most onerous parts from the contracts of distressed industry carriers.


Not surprisingly, Mr. Davis strongly defended the position that management should not be subjected to an additional pay cut in order to keep (in his
opinion) the "best" management team possible on the property. This argument was particularly ironic considering his earlier lengthy presentation about the need for drastic cuts in employee compensation.


Mr. Davis testified that Scope provisions in Section 1 of the NWA pilot contract are among the most restrictive in the industry and prevent the company from operating the proper sized aircraft in smaller markets. He argued that NWA cannot operate these aircraft at competitive costs in the
NWA system if they are operated at Northwest Airlines. He briefly
discussed management’s NEWCO small jet plan and then conceded that management has already come off of that plan during negotiations. However, what infuriated the MEC members in attendance were his subsequent statements indicating that management completely dismissed ALPA’s comprehensive NStar small jet alternative in negotiations.


The hearing recessed for the day at 5:15 p.m. following completion of Mr.
Davis’ testimony. Cross examination will begin tomorrow morning.


The MEC reconvened at the hotel and met from 6:30 p.m. until 10:30 p.m. They debriefed the day’s events, received another negotiations update, and provided additional feedback and direction to the negotiators. The MEC also received a telephone update from Captain Mike Foster, MEC Strategic Preparedness Committee Chairman. Mike called from the MEC office in MSP and updated the MEC on the status of strike preparation, including the status of the MSP primary strike center and local base strike center volunteers and facilities. He also reminded the MEC that plans are being finalized for NWA pilots to engage in informational picketing next week in Memphis and Detroit. Informational picketing in Detroit is scheduled for after the DTW Local Council meeting on Tuesday, Jan. 24. Detailed information about both informational picketing events will be communicated in tomorrow’s Hotline.
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Newco off the table? What's that all about???? This is almost better than watching a reality show....

 

[DTW320]

Newco off the table? What's that all about???? This is almost better than watching a reality show....

NWA agreed to scrap their Newco plan if ALPA agrees to let them operate unlimited 76 seaters at the regionals.

 

[Groucho]

A 350 is right on this one. We pilots only look at our situaition in these outsourcing issues. The real savings in all the other company positions. For every pilot there are many more baggaging handlers, mechanics, flight attendants, ramp and gate personel. In order to not have to fight all the unions you need the pilots to outsource first then you get the others by default.

 

[DTW320]

A 350 is right on this one. We pilots only look at our situaition in these outsourcing issues. The real savings in all the other company positions. For every pilot there are many more baggaging handlers, mechanics, flight attendants, ramp and gate personel. In order to not have to fight all the unions you need the pilots to outsource first then you get the others by default.

Some NWA mainline flights have been worked by outside contractors at some outstations for years. Why couldn't it be done with mainline pilots in a mainline 76 seater?

 

[TinGoose1]

Any NWA pilots want to explain how they can hold out on 76 seat flying when all the other majors have given up on it? Any judge would see that this is an industry average and allow it to be imposed. If you guys are willing to strike over an issue that is dead at every other Major, well, that seems a little strange to me. How many of the NWA pilots are willing to give up their pensions to save something that has been lost at every other carrier? This doesn't seem like the right issue to be fighting. Keep your pay and have national set 76 seats as the cutoff for ALL MAJORS. I'm not beating the NWA guys up, I'm only pointing out that the rest of us killed this issue already by giving in on 76 seat flying. This isn't NWA's fight, this was UAL/US air's fight 2-3 years ago.

 

[Andy]

Any NWA pilots want to explain how they can hold out on 76 seat flying when all the other majors have given up on it? Any judge would see that this is an industry average and allow it to be imposed. If you guys are willing to strike over an issue that is dead at every other Major, well, that seems a little strange to me. How many of the NWA pilots are willing to give up their pensions to save something that has been lost at every other carrier? This doesn't seem like the right issue to be fighting. Keep your pay and have national set 76 seats as the cutoff for ALL MAJORS. I'm not beating the NWA guys up, I'm only pointing out that the rest of us killed this issue already by giving in on 76 seat flying. This isn't NWA's fight, this was UAL/US air's fight 2-3 years ago.

That's where those of us at the other majors need to get back everything >50 seats.
As for UAL, our previous MEC chairman signed a side letter of agreement with the company to give them an equal number of 70 seaters as mainline aircraft. The rank and file NEVER voted on it. I can think of 2172 pilots who might want to get that little sideletter torn up. It'll be one of my goals when I return to UAL property.