NTSB recommendation on failed checkrides

[Cardinal]

the new instructor does not get enough supervision and guidance.
"Here! Here's 13 students in various stages of disarray - fly 'em."

The nail has been struck on the head with a 10 pound sledge.

 

[inline]

To tell you the truth, CFI's should have to have a minimum of 2,500 hours and at least an associate degree of any kind. This industry is ass backwards.


What the heck does having at " at least as associate degree, " have to do with flying an airplane? I personally know half a dozen 747-400 capts who have at least one thing in common; they never went to college.

 

[airspeed]

"Exactly the point...but Shiat happens on a daily basis...to not pass a checkride or rating on the 2nd try is just pathetic...there should be no excuse"

Give me a break dude, everytime one person screws up some new law comes out. A checkride is just that, a check and to be quite honest just because you pass a checkride doesn't mean you can fly when its 100 1/2 gusting winds to 40 kts. The sim is just a computer and not an airplane. Say they do pass another law and you get some check airmen who doesn't like you, I mean really doesn't like you. Just imagine the possibilities.

 

[FJP3]

I agree...some check airmen are ignorant Pr1cks. I walked from a checkride for personal reasons. I had taken a checkride with him before and had a bad experience...the guy gave me an unsat for everything I didnt do. I went up on the next ride (different checkpilot) and passed. Needless to say now if I am asked, I have to say I pinked that ride because I did not get along with the check pilot.

Anyway, he is one of those that were talked about before (2500 hours and will be a career flight instructor). Grumpy that he is still a flight instructor. Luckily I got one shot at him before I left ERAU and wrecked his day. He threw everything he had at me for the commercial oral and I tore him apart.

Back to the subject. A second checkride attempt should be allright unless things got sour with the examiner.

 

[wheelsup]

eedless to say now if I am asked, I have to say I pinked that ride because I did not get along with the check pilot.

If you were in Riddle's 141 course, the only checkride you could have "pinked" was the commercial (atleast back around 2000-2003). That was the only checkride that was with a DE...the other "checkrides" were strictly end-of-course stagechecks that if not passed (i.e. unsat) you simply re-do the items and the completed 8710 goes to the FAA like you passed it the first time you took it...hint hint.

Semantics, but in law everything is in semantics.

What's the upgrade time to the seminole running? I'm sure now it's creeping down but back when I graduated it was like 2 years, so one could easily amass 2500 hours in 2 years of teaching there before getting into a twin to move on. I know what you're saying though, there were a few pricks but most had a story - one guy that was hanging around was doing so until his green card cleared...it's not always what it seems on the outside.

Edit: Also, I wouldn't be so quick to volunteer that you failed because you didn't get along with someone. That might possibly open up a whole new can of worms ; "what if you don't get along with the captain, will you walk away from a flight?" or those sort of questions - bad news and tough to talk your way out of.

~wheelsup

 

[FJP3]

I graduated in 2001 so I guess it wouldnt apply then...praise the lord...im clean.

I wouldnt know about any upgrade time at ERAU...I applied and interviewed, but I think I really pissed off someone there because I was not hired eventhough I felt the intervew went well. I had around 850TT by then, since they had that stupid 500 TT rule if you got your CFI elsewhere.

Anyway, I know the Green Card guy...he is a good guy...the one I am talking about has been there for years as well, but wasn't well liked when he was an examiner back then.

 

[flyifrvfr]

I have to chime in on this subject. First I disagree with FNFAL on the 2500 hour requirement. Your time in your logbook alone is not a good judge of your piloting skills. I know people with thousands of hours and I hesitate to call them pilots. I know a few people with much less time logged who have skills that can't be denied. I have just over 540 hours in my log book and have failed two checkrides. I failed the Private, and commercial multi.

The commercial multi checkride was failed because the examiner noticed the database was expired on the GPS. The examiner waited until I was airbourne and after I entered the airport and procedure into the Garmin 430 he shut off the GPS map screen. I didn't put the VOR frequency in use to back up the GPS and he instantly failed me. I deserved the failure and went back up with the instructor for an hour and did several approaches with the GPS screen blanked out. The problem is that when you turn off the screen you lose DME as well.

I went into the office of the DE the morning of my second attempt and told the examiner that the GPS is still out of date but I have cross radials that I could use for situational awareness (psuedo dme). The cross radials will tell me when I am in the zone of ambiguity while tracking to a VOR for a VOR approach. The DE said that I couldn't do that. This was at 9:00 am and my ride was to be at 12:00 pm. I said to the examiner that if he wasn't going to let me use the GPS or cross radials for the approach which is legal, that he must just want to fail me again. I was angry to no end.

The DE hopped in the plane and I started the engines. I was still angry with him and I knew that no matter what I did or how well I fly, he is still going to fail me. Having nothing to lose, I turned on the GPS and then turned to the examiner and warned him that if he touched the GPS I was going to break his arm. I stated that I know that he is going to fail me but when we are done, I would be the only one getting out of the plane with two working arms. He didn't touch the GPS and passed me as well.

Here is where the story gets real interesting. I was training for my CFII/MEI ratings and asked the CFI if I could get a different DE instead of the DE we used before. He said no, just don't give the DE a hard time again and I would be fine. I had to call the DE and schedule the ride and I gave him my name. He asked me if I remembered what happened 6 months earlier with him and I told him I did. I also told him that I would bring enough money to pay for four checkrides instead of two as I was convinced that he would fail me on both the CFII and the MEI. I am pleased to say that he passed me the first time on both rides and he still has the use of both arms.

The moral of the story is that the DE could have given me a minute to put the VOR frequencies in the box as well instead he pulled the trigger the second he turned off the screen. It was an A Hole move but he did teach me a lesson. All the time during my training for various ratings, I never had airplanes with GPS or DME. Upon getting an airplane with GPS, I got lazy and didn't put he frequencies to VOR's to use. I deserved the failure and I even thanked him for pointing out my error, but the way he treated me on the re-test was uncalled for.

 

[mattpilot]

let me get this straight.... you threatend to break his arms if he failed you?

I stated that I know that he is going to fail me but when we are done, I would be the only one getting out of the plane with two working arms.

I don't think intimidating the DPE is kosher

 

[nitrogen]

What a great story

Heres the issue I have with you.

No matter how well you flew the checkride, if you threatened me with bodily harm, you would fail the checkride. Period. Regardless of your arms or mine.
You'd be getting a pink slip. Mental balance is a major part of your evaluation. You'd be toast.

I have to chime in on this subject. First I disagree with FNFAL on the 2500 hour requirement. Your time in your logbook alone is not a good judge of your piloting skills. I know people with thousands of hours and I hesitate to call them pilots. I know a few people with much less time logged who have skills that can't be denied. I have just over 540 hours in my log book and have failed two checkrides. I failed the Private, and commercial multi.

The commercial multi checkride was failed because the examiner noticed the database was expired on the GPS. The examiner waited until I was airbourne and after I entered the airport and procedure into the Garmin 430 he shut off the GPS map screen. I didn't put the VOR frequency in use to back up the GPS and he instantly failed me. I deserved the failure and went back up with the instructor for an hour and did several approaches with the GPS screen blanked out. The problem is that when you turn off the screen you lose DME as well.

I went into the office of the DE the morning of my second attempt and told the examiner that the GPS is still out of date but I have cross radials that I could use for situational awareness (psuedo dme). The cross radials will tell me when I am in the zone of ambiguity while tracking to a VOR for a VOR approach. The DE said that I couldn't do that. This was at 9:00 am and my ride was to be at 12:00 pm. I said to the examiner that if he wasn't going to let me use the GPS or cross radials for the approach which is legal, that he must just want to fail me again. I was angry to no end.

The DE hopped in the plane and I started the engines. I was still angry with him and I knew that no matter what I did or how well I fly, he is still going to fail me. Having nothing to lose, I turned on the GPS and then turned to the examiner and warned him that if he touched the GPS I was going to break his arm. I stated that I know that he is going to fail me but when we are done, I would be the only one getting out of the plane with two working arms. He didn't touch the GPS and passed me as well.

Here is where the story gets real interesting. I was training for my CFII/MEI ratings and asked the CFI if I could get a different DE instead of the DE we used before. He said no, just don't give the DE a hard time again and I would be fine. I had to call the DE and schedule the ride and I gave him my name. He asked me if I remembered what happened 6 months earlier with him and I told him I did. I also told him that I would bring enough money to pay for four checkrides instead of two as I was convinced that he would fail me on both the CFII and the MEI. I am pleased to say that he passed me the first time on both rides and he still has the use of both arms.

The moral of the story is that the DE could have given me a minute to put the VOR frequencies in the box as well instead he pulled the trigger the second he turned off the screen. It was an A Hole move but he did teach me a lesson. All the time during my training for various ratings, I never had airplanes with GPS or DME. Upon getting an airplane with GPS, I got lazy and didn't put he frequencies to VOR's to use. I deserved the failure and I even thanked him for pointing out my error, but the way he treated me on the re-test was uncalled for.

 

[wheelsup]

The commercial multi checkride was failed because the examiner noticed the database was expired on the GPS. The examiner waited until I was airbourne and after I entered the airport and procedure into the Garmin 430 he shut off the GPS map screen. I didn't put the VOR frequency in use to back up the GPS and he instantly failed me. I deserved the failure and went back up with the instructor for an hour and did several approaches with the GPS screen blanked out. The problem is that when you turn off the screen you lose DME as well.

The problem was that you were shooting a GPS approach with an out of date database - which goes against what the AIM specifies - refer to table 1-1-6. notes (2) and (3). You can use an out of data database in the enroute and terminal (within 30 miles) environment if you've checked the location of all navaids/fixes and they have not moved.

I went into the office of the DE the morning of my second attempt and told the examiner that the GPS is still out of date but I have cross radials that I could use for situational awareness (psuedo dme). The cross radials will tell me when I am in the zone of ambiguity while tracking to a VOR for a VOR approach. The DE said that I couldn't do that. This was at 9:00 am and my ride was to be at 12:00 pm. I said to the examiner that if he wasn't going to let me use the GPS or cross radials for the approach which is legal, that he must just want to fail me again. I was angry to no end.

I'm a little confused at what you're doing...if it is a Garmin 430 you're using its got a Nav/Com and GPS database. The Nav portion of the receiver will be current because you're just tuning in navaids, why did you want to throw them in the GPS side?

Why didn't you just do approaches without using DME!?! The good standby's - VOR's, ILS's, LOC's, NDB's, etc...?

Here's a quote out of the AIM from the good ol' boys at the FAA:

)Waypoints, fixes, intersections, and facility locations to be used for these operations [determining DME] must be retrieved from the GPS airborne database. The database must be current. If the required positions cannot be retrieved from the airborne database, the substitution of GPS for ADF and/or DME is not authorized.

The moral of the story is that the DE could have given me a minute to put the VOR frequencies in the box as well instead he pulled the trigger the second he turned off the screen.

Because you had already failed by loading an approach with an out of date database...

Did you look in the AIM at what was required of GPS? It sounds like you still don't understand why you failed...

~wheelsup

 

[flyifrvfr]

Wheelsup, the beauty of the GPS/coms is that you can isolate the GPS from the nav/com. I was using the GNS480 and I was not putting the nav/vor frquency into the unit. Remember that I said that failing the checkride was my fault and I deserved the pinkslip, but the DE had the option of letting me use the GPS as we were VFR in VMC. I can use the GPS and all of its functions on a checkride even if the database is expired. The choice to let me rests with the DE and he saw that I didn't put the frequencies in so he turned off the screen and immediaitely failed me.

I can't stress enough that I deserved the pink slip, but I didn't deserve his attitude on the retest. Please understand that you can use a GPS for primary navigation, even when doing practice approaches while VMC in VMC. It made no difference if the database was expired.

 

[wheelsup]

but the DE had the option of letting me use the GPS as we were VFR in VMC.

Ah, I see. You failed to mention that in your first post - there was no mention of it being done VFR or on a VFR flight plan...I can only go off the information given to me by you.

I understand why he failed you know, and why you were upset, he never gave you a chance to "intergrate" with the other forms of navigation. A dick move? yep...of course threatening bodily harm probably was a dick move on your part.

Also, did the DE not want you to use published cross-radials from other VOR's on the approach plate? What's up with that? If they're published, its legit. That doesn't make any sense.

sorry mate,
~wheelsup

 

[TonyC]

What a great story

I figured it was all fiction after, "... then turned to the examiner and warned him that if he touched the GPS I was going to break his arm. I stated that I know that he is going to fail me but when we are done, I would be the only one getting out of the plane with two working arms."

Mind you, they were still on the ground at this point. Any examiner that would continue to fly at that point should have his head examined.





.

 

[flyifrvfr]

I swear to god that this is a true " story ". I told the examiner straight forward that I know he is going to fail me again but if he touched the GPS I was going to break his arm. Now what I didn't mention in the story is that the examiner treated me with some respect after that. The DE also told my CFII what I said to him after I passed the re-ride and why; it was the longest flight back to the home airport I have ever had.

The morning of the re-ride, I walked into the office and told the examiner that I did some flight planning and was going to use cross radials from a VOR which is located 15 miles from the VOR I was using for a VOR approach. This radial was selected and plotted for distance but is not part of a charted approach. I was doing more work, but when I crossed the radial I knew I was two miles from the VOR I was tracking. I would than switch to the second VOR and prepare for a holding pattern in lieu of procedure turn outbound. The examiner told me no, I couldn't do this. I asked him to show me a reference where it prohibits using a non charted cross radial for situational awareness.

The DE said he knew of no reference other than that he could do what he wanted to do, not what I wanted to do. My CFII was in the office when I said that I have used this procedure before, it is safe and should be allowed as it tells me exactly when I will be in the zone of ambiguity. My CFII saw me get angry with the DE while still in his office and my CFII told me to wait outside. I told the examiner that I don't need to see him again until 12:00pm and that he would be best served to avoid me.

12:00 came and I went into his office. I was led to believe that we would go directly to the plane, but to my dismay he wanted to do another oral exam which I had already passed the day before. He tried everything he could think off to throw at me but I answered every question and showed him references to all of my answers. He said lets go to the plane. I once again told him that I was going to use the cross radial and he again said no. I than said as I was starting the engine that you are going to fail me anyway and as I entered the destination into the GPS I turned to him and said, touch the GPS and I will break your arm. I told him that I may fail but I will be the only one getting out of the plane with two working arms.

In closing, I have to say that I am not proud of how I treated the examiner. We were both unprofessional and threatening him was a STUPID move. I tell this story so others won't make the same mistake I made. I took two additional rides with the DE and as a CFII/MEI I would not hesitate to send a student to him for a checkride. We just got off on the wrong foot. Even though I threatened him, I still had to perform to PTS standards. I actually made it worse for myself because he could have failed me for just saying that to him. I am sure he looked for reasons to fail me again that are based on performance and not emotion. I do perform well under pressure. Heck, I recall that the procedure turn is to the left, guess which engine was failed and which engine I had to turn into.

 

[mattpilot]

The DE said he knew of no reference other than that he could do what he wanted to do, not what I wanted to do. My CFII was in the office when I said that I have used this procedure before, it is safe and should be allowed as it tells me exactly when I will be in the zone of ambiguity.

Uhm.. i don't suppose YOU have a reference for that?

You can not use an uncharted radial for an instrument approach. Perhaps you can in VMC under VFR flight rules, but under IFR rules you may not do that. The reason is because it has not been tested, or it has been tested and it was found the accuracy or some other critiria was unsatisfactory. There is a book called TERPS which outlines the requirements for EVERYTHING on an approach - if those requirements are not met for a certain 'procedure', it will not be authorized.

Since your checkride was supposed to simulate IFR conditions, the DPE was well within his rights to not allow you to use it, even if the flight was unde VFR rules, since in a real world situation, you wouldn't be allowed to use it either.