NPA Recall

[BagelBomber]

For those of you on the fence regarding the recall effort; I spoke with Mike Best the other day and he said he does not support the recall effort, however, if A.P. is recalled, he feels an obligation to the pilots of the NPA to run for office.

May change some minds...

 

[Eagle757shark]

For those of you on the fence regarding the recall effort; I spoke with Mike Best the other day and he said he does not support the recall effort, however, if A.P. is recalled, he feels an obligation to the pilots of the NPA to run for office.

May change some minds...

Your point is? Folks its time people make their own decision, not because of what one person says and who has the loudest voice and who is the most popular. This current NPA administration has come across very weak! From the Christmas mess, the loss of SAP2 on Flica, pulling the first TA instead of letting it go to a vote, and not strongly backing the Captains on the line in day to day operations when their authority is challenged. It seems that the NPA leadership has selective hearing. They hear what they want to, and their actions have proved that all year long. The unprofessional calling out of one of our fellow union members in an email to all the pilots was a line that was crossed. (It was cowardly) These guys have got too go. NPA members, too many decisions are being made by this leadership, many decisions that should be taken to the membership with votes! I'm sick of it! When you pull a TA instead of allowing it to go to a vote, it appears as if you are tampering with the results. Let it go to a VOTE! Pulling SAP2 should have been a decision made by the 1500 plus pilots through a vote, not by the NPA leadership. SAP2 on FLICA even though it is not perfect and has many flaws, is a tool that many of us use to attempt to improve the quality of life that WE ALL should enjoy, not just a certain few who happen to have been here a little longer. Folks remember, these are the same guys who wanted to shove this TA DOWN your throat for the sake of this now DEAD MERGER! So again, I ask, what is your point? Four weeks ago, I may have been willing to give these guys the benefit of the doubt, but not anymore. THEY HAVE GOT TOO GO! Remember, we currently have an amendable TA in place. Nothing will change until the NPA members say it will through a fair vote! I have no problem with us re-electing new leadership (and we all need to evaluate very closely who we elect) and then start the process all over again! Pilots of AirTran, this is our union, not a selective few with selective hearing! LET YOUR VOICE BE HEARD.........VOTE!

 

[BagelBomber]

I guess I should have been a little more clear. I DO SUPPORT the recall. I also think having M.B. as a potential candidate would be a great asset. Just my 2 cents. Take it or leave it.

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

Yes, Yes, Nooooo!!

 

[Eagle757shark]

I guess I should have been a little more clear. I DO SUPPORT the recall. I also think having M.B. as a potential candidate would be a great asset. Just my 2 cents. Take it or leave it.

I understand. If the NPA leadership is recalled, then those who want to make a difference and truely represent the Pilots of AirTran should state their case and be heard. I also believe that whoever becomes the NPA leadership should REMAIN current and qualified on their aircraft and should be flying the line at least once a month, so that they do not lose touch with the reality of what the day to day line pilot is experiencing!

 

[Ty Webb]

Good points by all. I can't even find any mud to sling . . . . . yet!

TW

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Anyone else hear that AP just signed a LOA that gives up our contractual rights regarding business class/coach aisle or window when deadheading?
According to the Capt I flew with today, it is now only "if available at departure time."

 

[SkiFishFly]

Anyone else hear that AP just signed a LOA that gives up our contractual rights regarding business class/coach aisle or window when deadheading?
According to the Capt I flew with today, it is now only "if available at departure time."

If this is true, then it should be nullified - He signed it when he knew he was about to be fired! What an arrogant SOB.

 

[BagelBomber]

It is true about losing the aisle or window for deadhead, however, it wasn't an LOA. It was a settlement to a grievance back in March. Little consulolation.

Between the TA and all the settlements, we'll be fighting for awhile just to get back to where we all were before this TA came out.

"Yes, Yes, NO"

 

[funnyman12]

Im new here and came from non-union regional. I was wondering if recalling the NPA leadership will help or harm us getting a respectable TA after this one gets voted down. I just worry that as pilots we fall into the grass is always greener thinking. Kinda like monday morning quarterbacks. I understand that the NPA seriously failed fullfilling the pilots group's desires. But I have talked to several pilots that say at this point it would harm us more than help to recall. After this TA goes down by 95%+ I would think that the current leadership would have a clear indication of what we want. Once again im uneducated on this issue. I do know that many pilots that post on FI can be on the pessemistic side and very outspoken.

 

[Lear70]

Im new here and came from non-union regional. I was wondering if recalling the NPA leadership will help or harm us getting a respectable TA after this one gets voted down. I just worry that as pilots we fall into the grass is always greener thinking. Kinda like monday morning quarterbacks.

First, welcome aboard.

Second, it really doesn't harm us at this point. Why, you ask? Simple.

If our leadership was representing the MAJORITY of the pilots with no concessionary side letters, failed slam-dunk grievances, but still brought a failed T.A. because of improper Wilson Polling data or interpretation, I'd be the first one to say, "Hey, these guys are busting their butts and taking no lip from the company, let's give them another shot at it."

In THAT case, recalling them would be VERY foolish, as you would have Leadership that's actively fighting for your rights and not giving up our contract once every quarter.

The problem is, they're not. They're failing from ALL ends of the spectrum. If they can't even DEFEND the contract, win grievances that clearly state "window or aisle seat" and have been past precedent for 6+ years, or bring a reasonable T.A., then what have you lost by removing them?

The Negotiating Committee is going to be replaced anyway, the company doesn't respect them or us NOW, and there's enough left of the BoD to keep the union intact and running for the month or so it takes to elect new leadership... So, again, what have you lost by removing them?

I understand that the NPA seriously failed fullfilling the pilots group's desires. But I have talked to several pilots that say at this point it would harm us more than help to recall.

Whoever's saying that isn't looking at the facts of the last 10-12 months, all the way back to the Christmas debacle.

If an elected group screws up one thing, you can forgive if they move on in the direction they're supposed to go. But the fact is simply that they haven't gotten much of ANYTHING right in the last year, and are moving AGAINST their own pilots (Age 60 support was HUGE without putting it to a vote).

After this TA goes down by 95%+ I would think that the current leadership would have a clear indication of what we want.

Don't I wish...

I've been there. I've seen what AP has in mind; it's often clearly AGAINST what the Wilson Polling data shows that the pilot group WANTS, but he thinks it's "in our best interest", so he goes for it anyway.

His goal is to get a passable T.A. Sooner rather than later. He's going under the assumption (and he's voiced this at the roadshows) that it's going to take 2-3 years for the Legacy carriers to get any real gains in their contracts (and he's right), so he wants to sign something NOW that will give us some decent pay raises, keep our current QOL or better, then re-open in 3 years and "ride the coattails" of the Legacy carrier gains.

The problem is, he doesn't recognize just how much of a pay cut that many of the work rule changes are, or can be, if Planning decides to change the way they built the "optimal lines" for the road shows.

In fact, I proved to them, and they could not refute, that those nice pairings could be made NOW, UNDER OUR CURRENT WORK RULES. So why don't they?

I proved to them their computation of the Twome grievance and how much it's worth as a negotiating tool is well less than HALF of its actual value, and they just ignored it and moved on.

They evidently cannot see past their own agenda they've created, and are blindly pursuing that same agenda, contrary to what the pilot group has demanded, and have begun "spin control" with the change in Negotiating Committee and marginalizing their illegal tampering on BD's site.

THAT'S why they have to go. Until the pilot group has a Leadership they TRUST to defend EVERY contract item, not just politically figuring out which ones are better to "win" and which ones are better to "lose", we won't have any unity and we won't get a decent contract.

Once again im uneducated on this issue. I do know that many pilots that post on FI can be on the pessemistic side and very outspoken.

I'm not trying to say our career is over if AP stays in office, but I *AM* saying you won't get a decent contract for a LONG time to come if he does remain in control. In all likelihood, you'll end up with pay raises that are reduced by work rule concessions that are thinly disguised it'll pass by 50% + 1, and we'll be fighting this battle again in 3 years.

Is that what you really want?

Recalling them and putting new leadership in that is aggressive in going after our contract sends a VERY clear message to management about this pilot group's full intent to obtain a contract that recognizes this company's profitability and our contribution to it.

p.s. As far as Mike Best goes, I don't know, I never met him or got to talk to him. Would have to hear his stance on certain issues I have before I could vote Yes or No,,, considering getting further involved myself (I know, someone shoot me now).

 

[Eagle757shark]

Im new here and came from non-union regional. I was wondering if recalling the NPA leadership will help or harm us getting a respectable TA after this one gets voted down. I just worry that as pilots we fall into the grass is always greener thinking. Kinda like monday morning quarterbacks. I understand that the NPA seriously failed fullfilling the pilots group's desires. But I have talked to several pilots that say at this point it would harm us more than help to recall. After this TA goes down by 95%+ I would think that the current leadership would have a clear indication of what we want. Once again im uneducated on this issue. I do know that many pilots that post on FI can be on the pessemistic side and very outspoken.

Let me start by saying, welcome aboard! FEAR is not the way to live your life! Sometimes you have to take chances. I'm going to lay it on a little heavy, because I want you to understand that we are not being pessemistic, but realistic to what is happening before our eyes. This union is not negotiating. They are going to the table and waiting for management to present them a favorable contract. That will never work. Before you arrived, these guys made some serious blunders and many are tired of the excuses. At the road shows, these guys tried to use fear to strong arm this pilot group into voting for this TA. Only when they realized they stirred a hornets nest did they realize we are tired of it. The NPA president has too go. Funnyman12 let me assure you, we will not be hurting ourselves by canning these guys. Some guys are afraid that changing leadership will lead to bad things...it will not.These guys (the NPA leadership) can't fix what is wrong because they have lost credability. First, we have a CBA (collective bargaining agreement) in place. It is amendable, which means most of us are doing just fine. Nothing will change until we vote in a change! However, looking at what our leadership is trying to force down our throats, is a step waaaaaay back! Let me challenge you and ask that you educate yourself by talking to as many pilots that you can. Read the current contract yourself and the TA they are presenting, and you be the judge. Don't just look at hourly pay, but look at work rules. But remain objective and don't fall victim to siding with one particular group here or there. After 90 days you should be able to vote..... Most likely, if you have completed IOE, you are eligible. Funnymann12, I welcome you to AirTran. I hope you have a properous and fruitful career here. However, you must not be afraid to stand for what you have worked so hard for.
Read your Contract and stay informed and you will make the right decision. WELCOME ABOARD!

 

[T3700]

9. Rules Governing Deadhead:
a) Pilots deadheading will have positive space “must ride” pre-assigned seats as
follows:
1) Pilots will be listed in the reservation system, and may call Crew Scheduling to
obtain the record locator.
2) Window or aisle seats in the forward most Section of the cabin.
3) Pilots will be upgraded to Business Class should seats be available at departure
time.
4) Deadheading pilots shall not be required to occupy a jump-seat.
b) Scheduled deadheads performed at the end of a pairing for the purposes of returning
a crew to their domicile will be scheduled on the first scheduled flight.

This seems to be clear cut to me. I don't see how anyone could interpret this to mean window or aisle seats if available at departure time.

Next thing we'll hear is that the contract doesn't actually state that our pay scales are in US dollars, the company really meant to pay us in Serbian Dinars.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

Would somebody kick coach's A$$ please

 

[SkiFishFly]

9. Rules Governing Deadhead:
a) Pilots deadheading will have positive space “must ride” pre-assigned seats as
follows:
1) Pilots will be listed in the reservation system, and may call Crew Scheduling to
obtain the record locator.
2) Window or aisle seats in the forward most Section of the cabin.
3) Pilots will be upgraded to Business Class should seats be available at departure
time.
4) Deadheading pilots shall not be required to occupy a jump-seat.
b) Scheduled deadheads performed at the end of a pairing for the purposes of returning
a crew to their domicile will be scheduled on the first scheduled flight.

This seems to be clear cut to me. I don't see how anyone could interpret this to mean window or aisle seats if available at departure time.

Next thing we'll hear is that the contract doesn't actually state that our pay scales are in US dollars, the company really meant to pay us in Serbian Dinars.

How could we lose window or aisle on a greivance when the above is in black and white in the contract?????

 

[Lear70]

How could we lose window or aisle on a greivance when the above is in black and white in the contract?????

My point entirely.

The Grievance Chair didn't know anything about this one until it was all over. Oddly enough, at this airline, unlike every ALPA carrier I've ever heard of, the Grievance Chair isn't present at many of the Arbitrations, which is CRUCIAL.

So the only person that WAS there is our General Counsel (LB) and I *think* Sal Faletta. I've heard 2 variations on the story but, the fact still remains, that we let this one go and it was a slam-dunk winner and we certainly didn't "get anything back" for it, no side letters, no nothing.

It's interesting that we let something go in grievance that was also given up by your NPA Leadership in the proposed T.A.

Still think they're worth keeping in office?


I'm still trying to find out if it was settled precedent-setting or non-precedent-setting, meaning whether we can go back with new NPA leadership and say, "We disagree with that grievance, and will fight it again, since it was settled non-precedent-setting."

If not, we're basically hosed until we sign a new contract that gets back that right. Another way to waste capital to fight a fight we already had fought and won.

Great strategy, folks. Bravo.

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

We need new stickers

YES---YES---NO!!!!:beer:

 

[SkiFishFly]

The Grievance Chair didn't know anything about this one until it was all over. Oddly enough, at this airline, unlike every ALPA carrier I've ever heard of, the Grievance Chair isn't present at many of the Arbitrations, which is CRUCIAL.

So the only person that WAS there is our General Counsel (LB) and I *think* Sal Faletta. I've heard 2 variations on the story but, the fact still remains, that we let this one go and it was a slam-dunk winner and we certainly didn't "get anything back" for it, no side letters, no nothing.

This should have been a slam dunk victory. I have had it - there are 3 more folks hi-lighted above who need to be fired!
What in the wide wide world of sports is goin on around here....

 

[Lear70]

Don't shoot Rob just yet... he's done an excellent job in a thankless position.

From my limited understanding, it's the "leadership's" agenda that Rob not be at every Arbitration and that Laura and Sal lead and arbitrate the grievances.

I like Sal, he seems to be a nice old guy, but I haven't seen him in action, either at the negotiating table (he didn't say much of anything for the entire 3 days I was up there) or in arbitration (haven't been to one here). So, I don't know if he's really good for us or not.

Laura I've seen in action. She's NOT an advocate for the pilots... Can't say specifically why, things that happened behind closed doors in negotiations but, that aside, her track record speaks for itself. Not to mention the FACT that she could be disbarred for her nosing around on BD's site, which I'm going to push for if the recall is unsuccessful and she remains in the employ of the NPA (which I can't imagine but anything is possible).

We definitely need to clean house, so spread the word about WHY to your fellow pilots who may not be on here. Allen has the benefit of being able to blast email 95% of the pilot group with his rhetoric without affording us the same ability... If he truly had nothing to hide, he would give everyone equal time and equal voice.

The dictatorship needs to end.

 

[PCL_128]

Allen has the benefit of being able to blast email 95% of the pilot group with his rhetoric without affording us the same ability... If he truly had nothing to hide, he would give everyone equal time and equal voice.

I've kept pretty quiet on the whole TA and recall issue since I'm relatively new around here, but I've got to speak up after that blast email that you refer to. For a member of the current leadership to use blast email and the official NPA website to campaign to keep his position is completely inappropriate and unethical. Unless he wants to provide the same access to the guys running for the position that he will likely soon vacate, then he shouldn't be using these resources for this purpose. ALPA's Admin Manual completely prohibited this sort of thing, but unfortunately, the NPA doesn't have the same sort of policy. But official policy or not, ethical guidelines and common sense should tell you not to use official Association resources for this purpose.

 

[SkiFishFly]

Don't shoot Rob just yet... he's done an excellent job in a thankless position.

From my limited understanding, it's the "leadership's" agenda that Rob not be at every Arbitration and that Laura and Sal lead and arbitrate the grievances.

I like Sal, he seems to be a nice old guy, but I haven't seen him in action, either at the negotiating table (he didn't say much of anything for the entire 3 days I was up there) or in arbitration (haven't been to one here). So, I don't know if he's really good for us or not.

Laura I've seen in action. She's NOT an advocate for the pilots... Can't say specifically why, things that happened behind closed doors in negotiations but, that aside, her track record speaks for itself. Not to mention the FACT that she could be disbarred for her nosing around on BD's site, which I'm going to push for if the recall is unsuccessful and she remains in the employ of the NPA (which I can't imagine but anything is possible).

We definitely need to clean house, so spread the word about WHY to your fellow pilots who may not be on here. Allen has the benefit of being able to blast email 95% of the pilot group with his rhetoric without affording us the same ability... If he truly had nothing to hide, he would give everyone equal time and equal voice.

The dictatorship needs to end.

Then Laura and Sal need to go. If they couldn't win this one they are worthless. I don't care how likeable they may be this is our livelihood we are talking about here.

 

[Lear70]

Then Laura and Sal need to go. If they couldn't win this one they are worthless. I don't care how likeable they may be this is our livelihood we are talking about here.

Agreed, no doubts about it.

PCL, that's exactly what I'm talking about. I'm not big on the ALPA kool-aid, you know that (although its time may come here), but the one thing I DID appreciate with ALPA was the clear-cut rules.

Allen's use of NPA resources to defend his own job without giving equal time to the recall group is a clear ethics violation, and he really needs to understand that he can't lead now. He's not trusted by a large portion of the seniority group (at least the 20% that signed the recall petition, probably more), and if he survives recall, he'll be a lame duck president at best with no way to bring the pilot group together.

That will do us MUCH more harm than good... I can only hope that the recall is successful, for the sake of all of us here.

 

[T3700]

Any one hear from the union regarding the Sept RedEye lines that land at 0600 followed by a 3 1/2 hour sit then a leg to ATL? I hope they don't leave it up to us to call in fatigued with a "promise" to back us up.

 

[DougCorp-9]

Fatigued would most likely be my response. It is hard enough to stay awake on the drive home let alone wait 3 hours and do another leg.

 

[PanPan]

"I will put out a special update after the meeting on Tuesday." AP

Soooo, today is Wednesday riiiiiiiiight? What happened to Tuesdays update? Silly me, I forgot that the NPA doesn't actually communicate with us.

 

[RadioClash]

Did anyone else notice that in AP's save my job email he had said that the two guys wanting the recall are intimidating the pilot group into going forward with the recall...didn't the NPA try to intimidate the pilot group into voting in a concessionary TA?

YES,YES, NO!

 

[SkiFishFly]

Did anyone else notice that in AP's save my job email he had said that the two guys wanting the recall are intimidating the pilot group into going forward with the recall...didn't the NPA try to intimidate the pilot group into voting in a concessionary TA?

YES,YES, NO!

I noticed the irony in that one too. When do the results of voting come out? Not soon enough...

 

[Lear70]

Voting closes September 5th. Figure 48 hours to verify results and post means we should have results public by September 7th, a Friday.

If it goes through, they have to step down THAT DAY, then nominations for the president office begin.

Since there's less than 6 months remaining for the V.P. term, they won't have elections for M.S.'s slot if he's recalled. The BoD *CAN* appoint someone to that position but, if they do, that person has NO voting rights on the BoD, so why bother?

My guess is we'll have an update by Friday that Tossi is "putting us on ice" until mid-January.

I also imagine he'll appoint a new NC towards the end of next week before the results from the election are in. Can't believe he's going to do that, but... then again, I can. He has a track record of doing what HE thinks is best, rather than what might be better for the pilot group as a whole.