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NPA Forum shut down?
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DonVerita
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1.5x pay should be the NORM for all open trips. When phone calls start going out because the trips still can't get covered, then those calls should be for 2.0x pay.
Let's face it. NPA is a dead dog as far as leadership, communication, contract writing (just see TA1 & TA2), contract enforcement, and progressive vision go. It's time has come and gone.
So I'll be the first to say it. It is time to de-certify NPA and go with a global union with deep resources and expertise. That means getting ALPA on property.
And before anyone says, "but..but..but" let me make three statements.
1. Duane Worthless is no longer running the show there. John Prater should be invited to come to ATL, get a big conference room at the airport, and hold at least 3 different sessions. In addition to this, he should put together a DVD and it should be mailed to every NPA member explaining exactly what ALPA can do for us.
2. Could ALPA be any worse than what we have now? Hard to imagine it could, but I seriously doubt it.
3. The current NPA leadership would be removed from office. They would have to run for the new MEC positions when ALPA took over. That would allow us to immediately weed out the weak reps. that are on the current BOD and give people with backbone the chance to hold an elected position.
Thoughts on this?
Let's face it. NPA is a dead dog as far as leadership, communication, contract writing (just see TA1 & TA2), contract enforcement, and progressive vision go. It's time has come and gone.
So I'll be the first to say it. It is time to de-certify NPA and go with a global union with deep resources and expertise. That means getting ALPA on property.
And before anyone says, "but..but..but" let me make three statements.
1. Duane Worthless is no longer running the show there. John Prater should be invited to come to ATL, get a big conference room at the airport, and hold at least 3 different sessions. In addition to this, he should put together a DVD and it should be mailed to every NPA member explaining exactly what ALPA can do for us.
2. Could ALPA be any worse than what we have now? Hard to imagine it could, but I seriously doubt it.
3. The current NPA leadership would be removed from office. They would have to run for the new MEC positions when ALPA took over. That would allow us to immediately weed out the weak reps. that are on the current BOD and give people with backbone the chance to hold an elected position.
Thoughts on this?
As a former ALPA organizer, I have to point out one problem with this: ALPA's policy is to not "raid" standing unions. In other words, they won't come in with a union drive until the NPA leadership requests it. I always had mixed feelings about this policy when I was doing organizing work, but it is what it is. If you want to bring new representation, then you'll have to get the NPA leadership on board before ALPA will take part.
That's actually an interesting way that you could proceed. I'm not sure how ALPA would react to a drive being initiated by a petition rather than just a normal request from a union's leadership. It's never been done before, to the best of my knowledge. I think it might work, though. Probably a great way to piss off the NPA, based on the latest email we all got about this last petition. They don't seem to be in a pro-petition mood.
That's actually an interesting way that you could proceed. I'm not sure how ALPA would react to a drive being initiated by a petition rather than just a normal request from a union's leadership. It's never been done before, to the best of my knowledge. I think it might work, though. Probably a great way to piss off the NPA, based on the latest email we all got about this last petition. They don't seem to be in a pro-petition mood.
I have been extremely disappointed with the NPA since I have been here. No pilot left behind my @#$!
We have all been left behind. Poor communication, crap LOA's. The company played a great hand of poker and won.
Secret Squirrel
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RadioClash
Well-known member
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It is way too much coincidence that the MEMRAT comes out and the NPA message board goes down.
I had high hopes for this new NPA leadership but I no longer have high hopes, I have no hope for them. I am extremely disappointed in both the NPA leadership and AT Mgt.
It seems to me that the NPA leadership has forgotten that the pilot group makes up the NPA. The NPA BOD wants total control over the pilot group and AT mgt wants total control as well but the pilot group is being left out in the process. Its difficult to convey. The pilot group wants a say in our daily happenings and mgt obviously says "no" and now the NPA BOD is also saying "no", the pilot group whom they are supposed to represent is being shut out. Reminds me of the song "Allentown" by Billy Joel..."and the union people walked away..."
As much as I do not care for ALPA maybe it is time to get them to come in...
If I was the NPA BOD I would want mgt to have to deal with 1600 pilots on issues (if the MEMRAT passes) rather than 4? BOD members who are going to roll over anyway.
I had high hopes for this new NPA leadership but I no longer have high hopes, I have no hope for them. I am extremely disappointed in both the NPA leadership and AT Mgt.
It seems to me that the NPA leadership has forgotten that the pilot group makes up the NPA. The NPA BOD wants total control over the pilot group and AT mgt wants total control as well but the pilot group is being left out in the process. Its difficult to convey. The pilot group wants a say in our daily happenings and mgt obviously says "no" and now the NPA BOD is also saying "no", the pilot group whom they are supposed to represent is being shut out. Reminds me of the song "Allentown" by Billy Joel..."and the union people walked away..."
As much as I do not care for ALPA maybe it is time to get them to come in...
If I was the NPA BOD I would want mgt to have to deal with 1600 pilots on issues (if the MEMRAT passes) rather than 4? BOD members who are going to roll over anyway.
Clyde Frog
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- 315
I agree.
RLAblows
like a man possessed
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No Alpa!
ALPA will never serve the best interest of the AirTran pilots, not with the big "D" across the ramp being ALPA also. I was an ALPA rep for some time and they don't care about the little guy. Never have, never will. Whoever pays the most dues gets their attention.
How about the Teamsters? They represent the MX already, why not us? Plus airline managements aren't for sure how to play the Teamsters, but ALPA, managements have had their way with ALPA for the last 8 years. ALPA is weak.
ALPA will never serve the best interest of the AirTran pilots, not with the big "D" across the ramp being ALPA also. I was an ALPA rep for some time and they don't care about the little guy. Never have, never will. Whoever pays the most dues gets their attention.
How about the Teamsters? They represent the MX already, why not us? Plus airline managements aren't for sure how to play the Teamsters, but ALPA, managements have had their way with ALPA for the last 8 years. ALPA is weak.
RadioClash
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Never thought about Teamsters, I personally would entertain that option.
Lear70
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I can't think of a good example of one PILOT group (airline pilots) that Teamsters has done well for.
NetJets got their last contract because management was afraid of what the pilots could do with their customers, and wanted to do the right thing anyway.
Hasn't NetJets gotten rid of teamsters anyway lately...?
Correct me if I'm wrong, I might be, haven't paid that much attention to any Teamsters-handled PILOT relations lately. Pretty sure it's a different ballgame altogether.
NetJets got their last contract because management was afraid of what the pilots could do with their customers, and wanted to do the right thing anyway.
Hasn't NetJets gotten rid of teamsters anyway lately...?
Correct me if I'm wrong, I might be, haven't paid that much attention to any Teamsters-handled PILOT relations lately. Pretty sure it's a different ballgame altogether.
Lear70
JAFFO
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I should state that I was represented by the Teamsters once. We were in Section 6 for 2 years... didn't get squat. The airline actually went out of business before anything really meaningful was accomplished, and this was in the heyday of the airline industry, 1999-early 2001, when DAL and UAL got their biggest contract gains.
In other words, I'm a little anti-IBT as well, although I'd be curious to know just what North American got, how much of an increase it was over previous book, and what their "new" payrates, work rules, and QOL is, not to mention how the IBT was able to accomplish it there and why the same thing would work at AAI...
Full of LUV
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This is classic!!!!
ALPA is weak??? Who is ALPA? It doesn't matter which union is in place, if the MEC agrees and the mngt agrees, and pilots agree, that is the contract in place. The union is just that, a union of the employed pilots, not pilots of different airlines. UAL pilots don't vote on Airtrans contract and vice versa, so to call the union weak is really calling yourself weak.
Now I do think ALPA should become the pilots union by saying in effect:
"This is the MINIMUM amounts of pay / benefits that a contract can contain for specific equipment for the pilots to be certified as an ALPA carrier", and then work to make ALPA the only and best professional pilot organization worth joining due to resources, information, and respect.
I have no problem with other unions, but if you form a union just to undercut what ALPA has stated professional pilots should be paid for specific equipment, then those pilots should be treated accordingly by the industry and fellow "professional pilots".
The days of just saying " but were a startup, we can't get paid professional wages" should be bunk, if a startup wants to compete, they should pay professional pilots, professional wages, and their employess should be treated as "non professionals" and treated accordingly without professional courtesie, yes that even means the jumpseat.
Alpa would then work at great lenths to codify with the FAA to as closely link being a part 121 pilot to ALPA status as possible, and the companies would agree because it would even out the playing field wrt labor costs among the "professional organizations".
You think that can't be codiefied, try becoming an "independent union" plumber in a major city and see the response you get..... Plumbers in the union will shun you, major companies/gov won't do business with you, and few will view you as a "professional" otherwise, they would summise, that you would have joined the "professional plumbers union".
That to me seems how to make a strong union, and I'm generally not even a union guy......
ALPA is weak??? Who is ALPA? It doesn't matter which union is in place, if the MEC agrees and the mngt agrees, and pilots agree, that is the contract in place. The union is just that, a union of the employed pilots, not pilots of different airlines. UAL pilots don't vote on Airtrans contract and vice versa, so to call the union weak is really calling yourself weak.
Now I do think ALPA should become the pilots union by saying in effect:
"This is the MINIMUM amounts of pay / benefits that a contract can contain for specific equipment for the pilots to be certified as an ALPA carrier", and then work to make ALPA the only and best professional pilot organization worth joining due to resources, information, and respect.
I have no problem with other unions, but if you form a union just to undercut what ALPA has stated professional pilots should be paid for specific equipment, then those pilots should be treated accordingly by the industry and fellow "professional pilots".
The days of just saying " but were a startup, we can't get paid professional wages" should be bunk, if a startup wants to compete, they should pay professional pilots, professional wages, and their employess should be treated as "non professionals" and treated accordingly without professional courtesie, yes that even means the jumpseat.
Alpa would then work at great lenths to codify with the FAA to as closely link being a part 121 pilot to ALPA status as possible, and the companies would agree because it would even out the playing field wrt labor costs among the "professional organizations".
You think that can't be codiefied, try becoming an "independent union" plumber in a major city and see the response you get..... Plumbers in the union will shun you, major companies/gov won't do business with you, and few will view you as a "professional" otherwise, they would summise, that you would have joined the "professional plumbers union".
That to me seems how to make a strong union, and I'm generally not even a union guy......
Full of LUV
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- 1,021
Why bother???
Lear,
Why bother with a new contract when the company has already forced you into a concession over firing the probies????? If the company wants to break the spirit of the contract and keep the lackey retirees working as training pilots, then the next day NPA should have taken a deadline stance to say that wouldn't stand and they consider the contract broken, null and void. The power factor here is that the pilots fear losing their job, mgt does not fear operations coming to a screetching halt. If mgmt thought that was even a remote possiblity, the contract would be followed and the furloughed pilots would have spot back in the training dept, if desired, but alas........
Lear,
Why bother with a new contract when the company has already forced you into a concession over firing the probies????? If the company wants to break the spirit of the contract and keep the lackey retirees working as training pilots, then the next day NPA should have taken a deadline stance to say that wouldn't stand and they consider the contract broken, null and void. The power factor here is that the pilots fear losing their job, mgt does not fear operations coming to a screetching halt. If mgmt thought that was even a remote possiblity, the contract would be followed and the furloughed pilots would have spot back in the training dept, if desired, but alas........
Lear70
JAFFO
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- 7,487
You know, I don't really have an answer for that...
Everyone is frustrated that the system appeared to be "broken", they tore it down, rebuilt what they thought was going to be a stronger union, just to get handed a bunch of status quo violations, LOA's that most people didn't like, and the company attempting to "terminate" 177 pilots.
That frustration is going to take other forms (like MemRat and this discussion about ALPA) and maybe even more, if something doesn't change fundamentally at the NPA that makes the line pilots believe that positive change is coming, and coming in a livable time frame.
I *AM* glad to hear of those who will be supporting MemRat. It's definitely a concept whose time has come, spread the word!
Alpa is the only union out there with the means to fight Lorenzo's boys. NPA has proven time and time again that they are worthless and useless organization, that has not been able to prove itself. So therefore tell me again why do I pay union dues?? Hell even say that both Alpa and NPA are both ********************ty at least with Alpa you can get loss of lic. and loss of medical insurance. You cannot get anything that comes close to that at the NPA. Eventually Airtran Pilots will have to become Alpa, if they realize that now or 5 years down the road.
CA1900
Big Member
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- Mar 17, 2002
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- 5,436
(I'm assuming you're referring to the 2005 contract, not the most recent one.) More to the point, they accomplished what they did because of the work of the pilot group, not the national whose name they were using. Teamsters didn't do squat to help that effort, and pushed the pilots to accept the embarrassing TA that was voted down by a large majority.
NetJets' pilot group was successful in spite of the IBT, not because of it.
Yes. Our in-house pilot group took the reigns a little over three weeks ago, with IBT kicking and screaming the whole way.
None of them are perfect, and all of them require the individual pilot group to do most of the heavy lifting. But from what I've seen of IBT (as a member) and ALPA (as an organizer trying to bring it on property at my last company), I'd give ALPA a slight edge over IBT if I had to pick one. In the end, though, it boils down to the resolve of the pilot group and the strength of the local leadership.
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Capt.LongThrust
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- Jun 21, 2005
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- 121
Got my Call
Received my weekly call today from CS, looking for a whore. I have been getting them almost every week for a month now.
I will believe the furloughs when I see them. I think it is a classic management psychological move. Give'em back something they already have....their jobs.
As far as unions, we the pilot group, is the union. Luckily this group is getting on the impatient side. I think this MEMRAT vote will show management that it may be easy to manipulate a BOD but not an entire pilot group.
Received my weekly call today from CS, looking for a whore. I have been getting them almost every week for a month now.
I will believe the furloughs when I see them. I think it is a classic management psychological move. Give'em back something they already have....their jobs.
As far as unions, we the pilot group, is the union. Luckily this group is getting on the impatient side. I think this MEMRAT vote will show management that it may be easy to manipulate a BOD but not an entire pilot group.
eaglesview
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- May 5, 2008
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Been there done that. Lost with ALPA's help. At the time the president of ALPA was a Delta pilot, Mr Duffy. As the president of the most powerful pilots union on earth guess which airline didn't hire EAL while UAL, NWA, USAir and others all did. My first red flag concerning ALPA
njcapt
Freak power candidate
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- Nov 26, 2001
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- 1,096
Well good. Maybe there will be some traffic on Brad's forum again. You guys run off to the competition as soon as the NPA thinks the natives have settled down and put their forum back up.
Wow! I didn't realize there was a competition between one site and another. I thought the intent of both was to provide information to the pilots of Airtran in a calm and resonable discussion. It looks as though all it is is BOD bashing though. Almost the same here on FI, why should the other 2 sites be any different.
See that's the whole point njcapt. To you and unfortuneatley to the rest of the airtran pilots it is a competition betwen one camp and another. Our BOD was elected to represent us and they are doing an ok job with it given the current state of things. What backing do they have? Guys that do nothing but bitch and moan and rant. Whatever?
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