NOW will you lemmings get IT??

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

all i know is with 45% of my income going to TAXES (and it appears that will be rising if the presidential polls are right), CPI is the least of my worries.

Really? 45% of your total income? You must make A LOT of money and no way to hide any of it.

 

[PCL_128]

I think he's including all taxes, which would be about normal for a lot of Americans. When you factor in all of the fed income taxes, state income taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, etc..., we pay a heck of a lot of money to the various levels of government.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

Wanna try that again there Citation Lover?

Recent tax legislationThe "Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act" passed in 2003, and additional, related legislation in almost every year since, has included some significant, often temporary, and somewhat confusing changes. This is in addition to the already complex tax code changes passed by Congress in 2000. Below is a summary of the changes that impact most taxpayers in 2007.

1. Child tax credit: The child tax credit has been increased from $600 to $1,000 through 2010. Starting in 2010, the tax credit returns to the level originally passed in the 2000 tax bill. The credit is, however, still phased out for higher incomes.
2. Marriage penalty relief: The new law makes the standard deduction for married couples filing jointly and qualified widowers to be double that of single tax filers. This puts the standard deduction for 2007 at $10,700. In addition to the increased standard deduction, the 15% tax bracket has been increased for married tax filers to further reduce the impact of the marriage penalty.
3. Lower tax rates: Below are the resulting tax rates and income ranges for 2007: Filing Status and Income Tax Rates 2007Caution: Do not use these tax rate schedules to figure 2006 taxes. Use only to figure 2007 estimates.
   Tax rateMarried filing jointly
   or Qualified Widow(er)SingleHead of householdMarried filing separately 10% $0 - 15,650 $0 - 7,825 $0 - $11,200 $0 - 7,825 15% $15,651- 63,700 $7,826- 31,850 $11,201- 42,650 $7,826- 31,850 25% $63,701- 128,500 $31,851- 77,100 $42,651- 110,100 $31,851- 64,250 28% $128,501- 195,850 $77,101- 160,850 $110,101- 178,350 $64,251- 97,925 33% $195,851- 349,700 $160,851- 349,700 $178,351- 349,700 $97,926- 174,850 35% over $349,700 over $349,700 over $349,700 over $174,850 Source: http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/article/0,,id=164272,00.html

1. Reduced Taxes on Capital Gains: Capital gains tax rates remain at 5% and 15% respectively. These capital gains rates are for property that was held for at least one year. This calculator assumes that all of your long-term capital gains are taxed the new rates of 5% and 15%.
2. Reduced Taxes on Dividends: The new law applies the capital gains tax rates to qualified dividends paid from most U.S. corporations and certain qualified foreign corporations. This calculator assumes that all dividends are qualified, however, you should make certain that this is the case in your particular circumstance. All qualified dividends will appear in column 1b of Form 1099-DIV, which should be sent to you in January of the year following the dividend payment. Taxpayers in the 10% or 15% bracket pay a 5% rate of tax on dividends paid between January 1, 2003, and December 31, 2007, and zero percent in 2008. Taxpayers in tax brackets above 15%, pay a 15% rate of tax on dividends paid between January 1, 2003, and December 31, 2008.
3. IRA and retirement plan deductions: The new tax law did not change IRA deduction and contribution limits. However, the 2000 tax code increased the amount for most individuals to $4,000 for 2007. Those over 50 can contribute $5,000.

 

[CitationLover]

Really? 45% of your total income? You must make A LOT of money and no way to hide any of it.

where are you living? add up the following.

federal income tax
state income tax
social security (6.5%)
sales taxes
property taxes
licensing fees for your automobile (plates, registration, etc.)

i am sure i am missing some too.

 

[CitationLover]

Wanna try that again there Citation Lover?

Recent tax legislationThe "Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act" passed in 2003, and additional, related legislation in almost every year since, has included some significant, often temporary, and somewhat confusing changes. This is in addition to the already complex tax code changes passed by Congress in 2000. Below is a summary of the changes that impact most taxpayers in 2007.

1. Child tax credit: The child tax credit has been increased from $600 to $1,000 through 2010. Starting in 2010, the tax credit returns to the level originally passed in the 2000 tax bill. The credit is, however, still phased out for higher incomes.
2. Marriage penalty relief: The new law makes the standard deduction for married couples filing jointly and qualified widowers to be double that of single tax filers. This puts the standard deduction for 2007 at $10,700. In addition to the increased standard deduction, the 15% tax bracket has been increased for married tax filers to further reduce the impact of the marriage penalty.
3. Lower tax rates: Below are the resulting tax rates and income ranges for 2007: Filing Status and Income Tax Rates 2007Caution: Do not use these tax rate schedules to figure 2006 taxes. Use only to figure 2007 estimates.
   Tax rateMarried filing jointly
   or Qualified Widow(er)SingleHead of householdMarried filing separately 10% $0 - 15,650 $0 - 7,825 $0 - $11,200 $0 - 7,825 15% $15,651- 63,700 $7,826- 31,850 $11,201- 42,650 $7,826- 31,850 25% $63,701- 128,500 $31,851- 77,100 $42,651- 110,100 $31,851- 64,250 28% $128,501- 195,850 $77,101- 160,850 $110,101- 178,350 $64,251- 97,925 33% $195,851- 349,700 $160,851- 349,700 $178,351- 349,700 $97,926- 174,850 35% over $349,700 over $349,700 over $349,700 over $174,850 Source: http://www.irs.gov/formspubs/article/0,,id=164272,00.html

1. Reduced Taxes on Capital Gains: Capital gains tax rates remain at 5% and 15% respectively. These capital gains rates are for property that was held for at least one year. This calculator assumes that all of your long-term capital gains are taxed the new rates of 5% and 15%.
2. Reduced Taxes on Dividends: The new law applies the capital gains tax rates to qualified dividends paid from most U.S. corporations and certain qualified foreign corporations. This calculator assumes that all dividends are qualified, however, you should make certain that this is the case in your particular circumstance. All qualified dividends will appear in column 1b of Form 1099-DIV, which should be sent to you in January of the year following the dividend payment. Taxpayers in the 10% or 15% bracket pay a 5% rate of tax on dividends paid between January 1, 2003, and December 31, 2007, and zero percent in 2008. Taxpayers in tax brackets above 15%, pay a 15% rate of tax on dividends paid between January 1, 2003, and December 31, 2008.
3. IRA and retirement plan deductions: The new tax law did not change IRA deduction and contribution limits. However, the 2000 tax code increased the amount for most individuals to $4,000 for 2007. Those over 50 can contribute $5,000.

you're talking about one piece of the pie. do you deduct anything from social security's 6.5% ese? do you deduct stuff from the 5+% you pay when you buy groceries? do you deduct anything from your property taxes?

money to the government, be it income taxes or sales taxes, IS STILL MONEY OUT OF MY POCKET.

trust me, i hide as much as i can legally hide:
max 401k contribution
max flex spending account usage
lots of deductions (interest on mortgage, difference in per diem, my civic hybrid had a $1700 deduction in 2006, child tax credit, etc).

don't make that much money either, we're in the 28% bracket.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

I think he's including all taxes, which would be about normal for a lot of Americans. When you factor in all of the fed income taxes, state income taxes, property taxes, sales taxes, etc..., we pay a heck of a lot of money to the various levels of government.

Ok. Let's assume he makes 100k (household). Owns a house, married, and has two kids, and $20000 in itemized deductions.

Fed Income: $5668 (est)
State Income: $4000 (est)
SS Income: $6045 (est)
Medicare: $1450
Property Taxes: $4000 (house)(est)
$600 (personal property if appl. for cars)

Total there is: $21,763.00
Am I missing something, or are we assuming that sales tax for the year would add up to an additional $23,000??

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

you're talking about one piece of the pie. do you deduct anything from social security's 6.5% ese? do you deduct stuff from the 5+% you pay when you buy groceries? do you deduct anything from your property taxes?

money to the government, be it income taxes or sales taxes, IS STILL MONEY OUT OF MY POCKET.

trust me, i hide as much as i can legally hide:
max 401k contribution
max flex spending account usage
lots of deductions (interest on mortgage, difference in per diem, my civic hybrid had a $1700 deduction in 2006, child tax credit, etc).

don't make that much money either, we're in the 28% bracket.

You are in the 28% MARGINAL tax bracket. That's not 28% of your taxes. In my example, if you made less money and had more deductions, you would pay an even lower percentage. I also did not allow for any deductions from state income tax.

 

[CitationLover]

look i do not want to argue economics with you livefast, but google this.

corporations pass taxes onto you and YOU pay for this hidden tax. how much of a $3 gallon of gas is pure taxes passed from Exxon to you? if you smoke how much of that pack is taxes? got a cell phone (see how much those fees and taxes are)? study after study has shown 25% of all spending on durable goods and services is to cover THEIR TAXES. add to that 3% inflation every year as a "tax" is it REDUCES my real income.

a pure tax is about 30% of my income with these additional amounts only adding on top of it.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

look i do not want to argue economics with you livefast, but google this.

corporations pass taxes onto you and YOU pay for this hidden tax. how much of a $3 gallon of gas is pure taxes passed from Exxon to you? if you smoke how much of that pack is taxes? study after study has shown 25% of all spending on durable goods and services is to cover THEIR TAXES. add to that 3% inflation every year as a "tax" is it REDUCES my real income.

Sounds like a good argument. We have to ASSUME that's true though. Still, fuzzy math at best, especially when you consider how many US corps set up offshore facilities/offices/hq's to AVOID taxes. However, you aren't paying a tax. You're paying the vendor to cover all of it's costs, whatever they may be.

You could also argue, then, that the corporations are ALSO paying a higher tax rate because a portion of your income is used to pay taxes, right???

 

[CitationLover]

You are in the 28% MARGINAL tax bracket. That's not 28% of your taxes. In my example, if you made less money and had more deductions, you would pay an even lower percentage. I also did not allow for any deductions from state income tax.

i think you meant to say 28% of your income, but thank you, i understand how the tax system works here. i actually do my own taxes.

i think you need to wake up to economic reality here. on one hand you're saying "real" people feel the squeeze and then on the other you're telling me my tax "bill" is less when it clearly isn't.

 

[CitationLover]

Sounds like a good argument. We have to ASSUME that's true though. Still, fuzzy math at best, especially when you consider how many US corps set up offshore facilities/offices/hq's to AVOID taxes. However, you aren't paying a tax. You're paying the vendor to cover all of it's costs, whatever they may be.

ASSUME nothing, it's f@#$ing true. Look at your stupid cell phone bill. Ask what your state tax on a gallon of gasoline is.

For example, a hole in your argument, is a payroll tax like SS and OASDI. Employers MATCH your tax contribution to the federal government, there is no offshoring allowed here. So that additional 6.5% is simply passed on down to the cost of their products and services.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

i think you meant to say 28% of your income, but thank you, i understand how the tax system works here. i actually do my own taxes.

i think you need to wake up to economic reality here. on one hand you're saying "real" people feel the squeeze and then on the other you're telling me my tax "bill" is less when it clearly isn't.

Yes, I did mean to say income. Thanks.

I'm the devil's advocate here. Using your own argument, if you want to use pure numbers...the CPI is 2.8%, then you MUST use real numbers with your taxes too. You do not DIRECTLY pay 45% of your income for taxes.

 

[CitationLover]

You could also argue, then, that the corporations are ALSO paying a higher tax rate because a portion of your income is used to pay taxes, right???

now you're catching on ese. look up how they pay OASDI and SS taxes.

 

[CitationLover]

Yes, I did mean to say income. Thanks.

I'm the devil's advocate here. Using your own argument, if you want to use pure numbers...the CPI is 2.8%, then you MUST use real numbers with your taxes too. You do not DIRECTLY pay 45% of your income for taxes.

no but using REAL income (as money in my hand) as a divisor would then mean using net income which only drives back up the % of taxes paid.

ok i have a headache now. please vote for ron paul so we can eliminate the IRS.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

now you're catching on ese. look up how they pay OASDI and SS taxes.

I don't have to. I understand that. I'm just saying that you have to look at the real percentage. There is no way to truly calculate the implied percentage that goes toward taxes. It could be 5% or 50%. There is no way to know.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

no but using REAL income (as money in my hand) as a divisor would then mean using net income which only drives back up the % of taxes paid.

ok i have a headache now. please vote for ron paul so we can eliminate the IRS.

:smash: Too bad there is no way to put a tiny picture of my head under that little hammer.

The IRS will never go away.....well, maybe not never, but RP won't make it disappear.

 

[CitationLover]

I don't have to. I understand that. I'm just saying that you have to look at the real percentage. There is no way to truly calculate the implied percentage that goes toward taxes. It could be 5% or 50%. There is no way to know.

i don't have to, i'll trust the economists who tell me how much it is.

read plenty about this at the Cato Institute.

 

[CitationLover]

:smash: Too bad there is no way to put a tiny picture of my head under that little hammer.

The IRS will never go away.....well, maybe not never, but RP won't make it disappear.

don't squash my dreams. :bawling:

 

[Future Furlough]

Yes, actually, it does. The statistical analysis of the CPI is based off of spending "diaries" that were kept by 30,000 families across the nation for several months. The calculation method is updated every few years by a new group of families. These diaries kept by "real people" are used to determine how much of the average American's budget is alloted to each category of product, and that info is used to calculate the impact of increases in prices of that type of item to each family. Got any empirical date to back up that claim? No? Didn't think so. Just because you claim it, doesn't make it so.

If I look at my "diary" over the last year, my food, gas and utility bills have all gone up more than 2.8%.
Heck, I consider $3.50 for a gallon a milk to be a good deal now. As far as economists accepting the CPI, I think if you look back over the last few years, there has been a fair amount of discussion over whether the CPI's "basket" of goods is an accurate representation of the US economy. Plus, you gotta recognize the relationship between inflation and growth in GDP. At 2.8% inflation, growth in GDP looks respectable. At 4-5% inflation, GDP growth gets near zero.

Remember, there are lies, damn lies, and statistics.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

i don't have to, i'll trust the economists who tell me how much it is.

Well, that can only be a guideline, though. I took a lot of economics in college. I learned that numbers can be twisted more than any words when using economic theories, and that two different economists, with two different agendas, will produce two sets of very different results, using the same data. Soooooo....forgive my skepticism.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

don't squash my dreams. :bawling:

I can't help it. I love to squash other's dreams. :nuts:

Seriously though. A consumption tax would be nice in replacement of the income tax, with rebates on necessities for low income people. A nice side benefit might be for people to think twice before buying all the useless crap they buy, and maybe some of this senseless consumerism would finally be tempered.

 

[CitationLover]

trust me i wish i had your estimated property taxes here in chicago.

 

[NewmanF16]

According to the Tax Foundation, tax freedom day was April 30th this year. http://www.taxfoundation.org/UserFiles/Image/Tax-Freedom-Day/2007/figure4large6.jpg shows the breakdown of average taxes paid. It takes the average American 120 working days to pay their taxes. Given there are 260 working days in a year, that means you pay 46% of your income in taxes. You can look here http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxfreedomday/ for more details.

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

trust me i wish i had your estimated property taxes here in chicago.

Actually, mine are about half of that. I thought I was estimating a little high. yikes.

 

[CitationLover]

According to the Tax Foundation, tax freedom day was April 30th this year. http://www.taxfoundation.org/UserFiles/Image/Tax-Freedom-Day/2007/figure4large6.jpg shows the breakdown of average taxes paid. It takes the average American 120 working days to pay their taxes. Given there are 260 working days in a year, that means you pay 46% of your income in taxes. You can look here http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxfreedomday/ for more details.

thank you newman that was exactly what i was trying to find.

 

[Andy]

According to the Tax Foundation, tax freedom day was April 30th this year. http://www.taxfoundation.org/UserFiles/Image/Tax-Freedom-Day/2007/figure4large6.jpg shows the breakdown of average taxes paid. It takes the average American 120 working days to pay their taxes. Given there are 260 working days in a year, that means you pay 46% of your income in taxes. You can look here http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxfreedomday/ for more details.

Newman, that's 120 days, not 120 work days.
1 Jan to 30 April = 4 months = 1/3 year = 33%

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

Newman, that's 120 days, not 120 work days.
1 Jan to 30 April = 4 months = 1/3 year = 33%

Thank you. You beat me...120/365=32.8767.......

 

[NewmanF16]

Well, I'm not sure which is right. The chart's title is "Average number of days worked to pay taxes..." and "Days spent Laboring...120 days"

 

[CitationLover]

Thank you. You beat me...120/365=32.8767.......

reread what newman posted. he said it takes 120 working days (not days) to pay off the taxes. his math was correct.

the error, if anything, is that tax freedom day is actually LONGER into the year. yikes!

 

[FlyFastLiveSlow]

reread what newman posted. he said it takes 120 working days (not days) to pay off the taxes. his math was correct.

the error, if anything, is that tax freedom day is actually LONGER into the year. yikes!

Actually, if you use the link, it contradicts itself. I think the "120 working days is a misprint" if you read the whole page.

Read the table towards the bottom of the page....it actually states 32.69%