Not the customer.

[nosehair]

I keep seeing a lot of pilot people tell the new comers and complainers about flight schools and instructors. They say, "You're the boss. If you don't like your instructor, or the way the school treats you, it's your money, go find another school or instructor."

In the case of an actual bad instructor or school, this is appropriate, but it isn't always the case. Unfortunately, there are bad schools and instructors, so you must keep a keen eye out for this, but the proof is in the pudding.

A good instructor always has good resulst - a high pass rate. Soetimes a good instructor may say things or do things that upset you, such as tell you that your perfomace needs improvement, or he may make you flounder and figure out for yourself what you should do. He may embarrass you and cause all kinds of emotional upset.

He is a teacher, and sometimes teachers make us do things we otherwise would not want to do. But at the end of the day, we have learned. And we have learned something about ourself beyond the mechanical function of manipulating the controls. We have learned patience and self-control. Very important qualities in flying.

I wanted to get this out because there is so much advice here about the student telling the instructor how to teach him. That won't work.

Sure, you must be able to get along with him/her, but once the commitment is made, and you have seen that this instructor gets results, then you should bite the bullet and do as you are told.

 

[timeoff]

I agree. A student needs to be somewhat humble and realize that what the instructor is doing has a purpose and seeks a specific result. It ain't always about customer service.

I think that people get emotional when it comes to the thousands of dollars being spent on training. Its hard to accept when you are paying $200 a lesson and are repeating the same manuvers because the instructor didn't plan appropriately and forgot what you had done on your last flight until you were on you way back in.

 

[Metro752]

I never said tell the instructor how to teach. I've said fire the instructor only after hearing a long drawn out story.

And uh, even if an instructor has a million students and can only get you in once a week, even if he's a good instructor, and you want to fly more than once a week, which IS NOT enough, go somewhere else.

BTW, the student is the boss, he is the customer, and he is right, even if he isn't.

It's his money and HE can do whatever he wants with it, and if the student doesn't like an instructor with a good pass rate, OH WELL, it's HIS decision.

 

[minitour]

BTW, the student is the boss, he is the customer, and he is right, even if he isn't.

Wrong.

The customer isn't always right.

The customer is always the customer...but the customer is not always right.

In the end, the instructor is the boss. If the CFI wants you to do three hours of steep turns and power on turning stalls to the left with 15 degrees of flaps at MTOW on Fridays, then guess what you're doing?

The instructor is responsible for making sure you learn...if you're a student and not picking up on it, that may be a key time to ask some other instructors for a flight or two.

I personally could NOT get lazy eights...not at all even close. I was told to do two hours of nothing but lazy eights...went and did them...came back...asked another CFI for one flight and *click*.

In that case, me being the customer wanted another product...I got it. But I certainly wasn't the boss in that situation.

Students who think they are the boss are typically (not always) the ones that think "I paid $X for a certificate..." when in reality there are no guarantees in this industry.

nose - well put.

-mini

 

[Tonala2k]

ATTN Students, stick it to your CFI

Enough with the clichés about clichés. Swallow this. If the student does not feel that he/she is learning, the instructor has more teaching to do. Maybe not about aviation, but about why they're doing what they;re doing. FOI, learning is purposeful. It is by no means the student's responsibility to learn the way the CFI can teach. It is the CFI's responsibility to teach in a way the student can learn. The student is in charge. There's a difference between 'tough love' and being arrogant about your way of teaching. I pride myself that I have 40hr students, and 80 hour students. Not everyone will learn the same way or rate. You sound like the crap instructors we hire who think that everyone should approach aviation from a professional pilot stand point. Not the case.

About scheduling, I tell my students to schedule only 2 lessons per week. Two fold. I know that they are busy with jobs, family, church, school and so on. There's no way that if they came out more than twice per week that they would be getting enough time at home to study to keep it balanced. All fly and no books doesn't work. Second reason why is that I have so many students that the crap instructor refuse to teach because they're not 'golden' students. Get off your high horse and learn to teach. That's what you're paid to do.

 

[Metro752]

Wrong.

The customer isn't always right.

The customer is always the customer...but the customer is not always right.

The customer is always right, even when he's not. I said the same thing you said, only phrased the old fashioned way.

If Customer/Student A doesn't want to do any more steep turns, he can go to another CFI or another FBO, and when he doesn't want to do what they want, he'll find out the hard way. But before all of that, he should be a good consumer and ask around, (ie: Flightinfo.com Studentpilot.com) if what he is being asked to do and charged for is reasonable.

In the end, the instructor is the boss. If the CFI wants you to do three hours of steep turns and power on turning stalls to the left with 15 degrees of flaps at MTOW on Fridays, then guess what you're doing?

The instructor is responsible for making sure you learn...if you're a student and not picking up on it, that may be a key time to ask some other instructors for a flight or two.

I personally could NOT get lazy eights...not at all even close. I was told to do two hours of nothing but lazy eights...went and did them...came back...asked another CFI for one flight and *click*.

In that case, me being the customer wanted another product...I got it. But I certainly wasn't the boss in that situation.

Students who think they are the boss are typically (not always) the ones that think "I paid $X for a certificate..." when in reality there are no guarantees in this industry.

nose - well put.

-mini

I am not saying in any way that if you pay $10k or $2 billion you should be entitled to a cetificate. I mean you are incharge of whether or not you feel you are receiving quality instruction. And if the only way to rectify the feeling of not receiving quality instruction is to find another instructor, or another FBO, then by the power of the Almighty Dollar, do so.

99% of people going for ratings are in high school or have graduated high school and I would say after at least 10 years of schooling, one should be able to gauge whether or not they are receiving quality instruction.

That's all I'm saying. People shouldn't be afraid to sh1tcan their current instructor. It's not the end of the world, and in the end if you are receiving crap training, you're the one losing money, not the CFI.

If the CFI wants you to do three hours of steep turns and power on turning stalls to the left with 15 degrees of flaps at MTOW on Fridays, then guess what you're doing?

 

[Alamanach]

I think you guys are kind of splitting hairs here. In the original post that started this thread, it was written that while a bad school/ instructor should be walked away from, a student needs to be willing to follow a good instructor who may at times put him through some unpleasant things. From reading your posts, I get the idea you would all agree with that.

In any educational endeavor-- elementary school, flight school, college, whatever-- the single most important element in the equation is the student. A good student will find ways to learn the stuff, despite the obstacles placed in his way. A bad student will not, despite the outstanding resources at his disposal. All that other stuff-- the quality of the school, the instructor, the cirriculum, etc.-- certainly plays a part, but nothing plays so large a part as the student himself. When you really get down to it, we are all self-taught.

Speaking of self-taught: I don't have the money right now to do any flying, so I'm not at any school working on my instrument rating. Instead, I'm at home working on my instrument rating. After 0.0 hours of instruction, I can tell you all about ILS approaches, outer and inner markers, primary and secondary instruments, flying a DME arc, and so on. I found some really interesting VOR stuff online, and I'm confident I can intercept a radial as well as or better than anybody on this site. I don't feel I'm quite ready for the written yet, but I'm getting there. With that kind of preparation, I'd like to think I'll be ready for a difficult instructor.

So, much depends on the student. The irony of nosehair's statements is that those who most need to hear him are probably those least likely to listen.

 

[nosehair]

So, much depends on the student. The irony of nosehair's statements is that those who most need to hear him are probably those least likely to listen.

Well said, my friend.
I am speaking of the type of student who has the mindset that he is hiring a "caddy", to carry him to his highly paid for pilot certificate.

I can see from the responses that I have touuced a bigger nerve than I thought regarding the quality of instructors out there.

Tonala2k is right about it being the instructor's responsibility to teach to the student - that's what a CFI is; someone who can translate the book learning to a level of understanding that actually reaches the student. If all he can do is quote the book, then you might as well have a safety pilot with you while you teach yourself from the book.

It's all about the student. The good student recognizes the ernest effort of the instructor, and both enjoy the learning process. The good student can also easily tell when the instructor is not ernest or is incompetent, and he/she most certainly should get away from him/her.

Perhaps if that happened more, the lousy crappy qualty of too many would go away also.

I'm speaking to the idea or concept that the instructor is legally and, more importantly, morally responsible for your safety, your life, and the lives of those around you. This is not learning to play golf, and the instructors should not be treated as such, even though they make less than caddies and/or golf instructors.

And I'm talking about the good ones - the ones that want to.

 

[CalifDan]

This is turning into an interesting topic. I'm not sure a "good" student would recognize a bad or marginal instructor but rather might learn in spite of him.

I learned to fly many years ago, when there was admittedly less to learn. I learned at a non-tower field from an old guy who I think did not like radios much. I soloed in less than 7 hours and was licensed at 44 hours. This included a 10 hour solo cross country (over 500 miles each way) to kill time towards the 40 hour minimum. I was like Alamanach, read everything I could from a young age. He could not give it to me fast enough.

I began to realize some of my instructors short-comings later in the PPL training when I planned a cross country that took me near some busier airspace. I had asked him about approach countrol frequencies and he said I would not need it. When I got nearby said airspace, I decided that I did in fact desire the approach countrol frequencies, which I obtained from flight service if I recall correctly (this was 37 years ago). Turns out that little Cherokee 140 I was flying had a 90 channel comm in it that did not even get the frequency.

But even with that my real recognition of instructor ability came later, certainly after the PPL license, and maybe not until after I had enough experience to start recognizing and developing my own toughts regarding the safe and efficient operation of an aircraft.

I agree that a student needs to have a desire to learn and also that they need to be open to criticism when something is not being performed correctly. That criticism can be delivered in a professional manner, but I can think of a few times in my past when it might have degraded a little below that level and those happen to be well remembered lessons.

I have only "Quit" one instructor in all the years. As my experience and time grew I have become more thoughtful in selection. I recognize that there are sometimes more than one right answer to some aviation quetions and I won't fly with someone who has not at least gotten that far.

 

[Tonala2k]

My Retraction

Fine! Be all nice and understanding and make me look back for lashing back. I'll swallow my pride now. Excuse me for my ranting and raving. This thread has a theme targeted toward student accountability and I was wrong to interject CFI responsibility. Neither cancels the other out, and when both meet... Wow!

(Tonala2k steps down from high horse)

To students, it will make a huge difference in your pocket book if you go the extra mile on your side. Be sure to find a CFI who does likewise and you're sure to go far.