Not enough pilots out there?

[hopalong]

Go back to the dictionary and learn the difference between opinion and fact. Then re-read my post. Explaining first year pay and furlough is simply passing on factual data and I don't think there is anything wrong with that (if you had read my posts carefully you would have already understood this). However, that other fcknut was explaining that he was interjecting his opinion of said furlough and low pay and I think it is wrong to tell little kids that you are a pilot and you think it's a crappy job and that they should look for other careers. You are welcome to lay out the facts for people. I think it's commendable that you would want people to know the facts before they enter a big decision. However, these are kids and you have no right to tell them that you think they should dash all their dreams of flying because you think it's a crappy job. If they have all the facts and still go into this business, then let them formulate their own opinions of the job. I know I have and you have as has every other pilot out there. Kids look up to pilots as "special" people no matter how ridiculous that sounds to you now. I think if you look back, you probably felt the same way when you were a little kid. You have no business giving them your negative opinions. (Look up the definition of opinions before you answer me this time). Yes I can sound condescending here because I am trying to talk down to your level. That's what this board is for you
numbskull!

O.K. You just convinced me of a few things. Not only are you obnoxious but you are also a communist idiot who believes that I should deliver speeches
that provide nothing but facts.

First of all, I am not talking with fifth graders. I am talking w/high schoolers
and college kids. If you would've read my post you would have understood that. Not once in my post did I say anything about furlough.Let me clarify this much. When I said that I do not recommend aviation to anyone, I meant to say to JUSt anyone.Itell all the students to get as much information and educate themselves as much as they can. I even give them my cell# as well, as one friend in cargo and one at the majors, so that, they make their own decisions. Oh and yes, I am being condescending because I have come to
the conclusion that you are the type of person looking for a fight. You must be a real joy to fly with sunshine. Oh, tell me one thing. Should I answer any
of the students questions? Or just refer them to statistics. Boy, I bet they
would take away a lot if I gave nothing but the facts. I understand that we,
eventually will make a lot of money but they need to know of all the sacrifices we make. (like doctors and lawyers)

Hey sunshine, here's an idea. Let's hit the road together and campaign that everyone becomes a pilot!!!! Let's candy coat everything about it because
we don't want to squash all those dreams. And if you think that aviation schools and airlines don't do that very thing to increase competition
and lower wages for all of us, then you my friend are VERY naive.

Do us all a favor,when you come back from La, la land, let us know what you've learned. I am sure it will be stimulating.

 

[PilotOnTheRise]

You need to compare airline salaries with other workers who travel for the job and spend a lot of time away from home...$80K is great if you work 8 hour days and come home each night, but most pilots don't.

Look at oil rig workers, miners, fishermen, defense contractors, and other specialty workers who work in remote locations...

They usually work 7 on/7 off (or 14on/14 off) and pull down enough overtime to get into 6 figures. Most of these folks do not have high training & education overhead either.

BTW, the days of pilots working 6 days/month are long gone, typical regional guy is lucky to get a 15/15 split, which is the standard in other industries that work away from home.

I absolutely agree with you 100% here! I agree that pilots should be paid more for what they do, and what is involved with the job. What I don't agree with, is that the salaries, putting all of that aside, are bad salaries. They are not.

Another thing to keep in mind, however. Salaries in 'Corporate America" have been declining over the last couple of years. Thus far, they have declined 3-4%. While this does not compare to the cuts major airlines have seen, remember that these "Corporate American" workers were probably making half, or less than half of that major captain's salary to begin with. Also, not all jobs are 9 to 5 jobs. In fact, it is quickly becoming the normal to see people working 50-60+ hours per week. A good friend of mine worked 12+ hours yesterday, and has been doing the same this entire week, because of the amount of work on his plate. He makes $35K/year with a degree in computer information systems.

One positive thing about aviation, that is almost the opposite of non-aviation careers, is; the more money you make in aviation, typically means the more seniority you have, which means bidding a better schedule, which means having more days off, etc., which all leads to a better QOL. Jobs in 'Corporate America', however, the more money you make, usually the more responsibility you are given, and thus the more work you have, which means more time at work, etc. At least that is the way it has been working for people I know. I know a lot of people sticking with their $60-$70K/year job, because it allows them to live a good QOL, compared to taking that promotion, which may get them more money, but would involve them having to work more, etc.

I think there are positives, and negatives, in any industry you look at.

 

[PilotOnTheRise]

O.K. You just convinced me of a few things. Not only are you obnoxious but you are also a communist idiot who believes that I should deliver speeches
that provide nothing but facts.

First of all, I am not talking with fifth graders. I am talking w/high schoolers
and college kids. If you would've read my post you would have understood that. Not once in my post did I say anything about furlough.Let me clarify this much. When I said that I do not recommend aviation to anyone, I meant to say to JUSt anyone.Itell all the students to get as much information and educate themselves as much as they can. I even give them my cell# as well, as one friend in cargo and one at the majors, so that, they make their own decisions. Oh and yes, I am being condescending because I have come to
the conclusion that you are the type of person looking for a fight. You must be a real joy to fly with sunshine. Oh, tell me one thing. Should I answer any
of the students questions? Or just refer them to statistics. Boy, I bet they
would take away a lot if I gave nothing but the facts. I understand that we,
eventually will make a lot of money but they need to know of all the sacrifices we make. (like doctors and lawyers)

Hey sunshine, here's an idea. Let's hit the road together and campaign that everyone becomes a pilot!!!! Let's candy coat everything about it because
we don't want to squash all those dreams. And if you think that aviation schools and airlines don't do that very thing to increase competition
and lower wages for all of us, then you my friend are VERY naive.

Do us all a favor,when you come back from La, la land, let us know what you've learned. I am sure it will be stimulating.

People need to know the entire side of things, good, and bad. Letting them know about the negatives, is good. However, just make sure you aren't steering them in any direction. In your original post, you talked about having to peel their, and their teacher's/professor's faces off the ground when telling them about regional, and major pay. When I read that, the first thing I thought, is that you were telling them that you only make $20K, and things won't get better. If I were at a career day, and didn't know aby better about pilot pay, etc., and I were told $20K to start, $30-$40K after first year, $80K as a captain, majors captains make over $100K, etc., I wouldn't have been floored. I would have thought that was a good salary, and normal.

 

[Murdoughnut]

I absolutely agree with you 100% here! I agree that pilots should be paid more for what they do, and what is involved with the job. What I don't agree with, is that the salaries, putting all of that aside, are bad salaries. They are not.

Another thing to keep in mind, however. Salaries in 'Corporate America" have been declining over the last couple of years. Thus far, they have declined 3-4%. While this does not compare to the cuts major airlines have seen, remember that these "Corporate American" workers were probably making half, or less than half of that major captain's salary to begin with. Also, not all jobs are 9 to 5 jobs. In fact, it is quickly becoming the normal to see people working 50-60+ hours per week. A good friend of mine worked 12+ hours yesterday, and has been doing the same this entire week, because of the amount of work on his plate. He makes $35K/year with a degree in computer information systems.

One positive thing about aviation, that is almost the opposite of non-aviation careers, is; the more money you make in aviation, typically means the more seniority you have, which means bidding a better schedule, which means having more days off, etc., which all leads to a better QOL. Jobs in 'Corporate America', however, the more money you make, usually the more responsibility you are given, and thus the more work you have, which means more time at work, etc. At least that is the way it has been working for people I know. I know a lot of people sticking with their $60-$70K/year job, because it allows them to live a good QOL, compared to taking that promotion, which may get them more money, but would involve them having to work more, etc.

I think there are positives, and negatives, in any industry you look at.

I agree with you - people seem to have very unrealistic expectations of what salaries are out there. I see this a lot in the business world. There are still some mainline and cargo pilots making around $200k a year, but those days are slowly fading. With the number of people with college degrees out there rising by the day, there are just very few jobs where you're going to make more than $50k a year without several years of experience and some degree of expertise. We have entry level folks coming from college who expect to make $80k right out of the shoot because someone fed them poor information about what they'd make. Realistically, we'd probably start them around $35k.

Salaries are on the decline, while cost of living is going up - an unfortunate mix that I predict will lead people to live lives far less luxurious than they do now.

 

[se1776]

http://www.acinet.org/acinet/oview5...=&id=1,&nodeid=7&soccode=&stfips=00&x=43&y=13

check this out one more time out there somebody still have the idea that been a pilot is a great paying career.

If you been in it for some time you might be doing OK
But if you are just getting into it FORGET IT

http://www.jetuniversity.com/ pay $20,000 to fly a jet in 7 months
and make $19,000 a year

 

[geojet707]

I heard that there is a big decrease of pilot applying to the commuters.
Some companies hire 5 and at the end 1 or 2 shows up for ground school.
Is it that bad.

After two regionals, you can have them!!!!

 

[PilotOnTheRise]

I agree with you - people seem to have very unrealistic expectations of what salaries are out there. I see this a lot in the business world. There are still some mainline and cargo pilots making around $200k a year, but those days are slowly fading. With the number of people with college degrees out there rising by the day, there are just very few jobs where you're going to make more than $50k a year without several years of experience and some degree of expertise. We have entry level folks coming from college who expect to make $80k right out of the shoot because someone fed them poor information about what they'd make. Realistically, we'd probably start them around $35k.

Salaries are on the decline, while cost of living is going up - an unfortunate mix that I predict will lead people to live lives far less luxurious than they do now.

Very true. People have very wrong expectations of salaries. They hear of someone who received a starting salary of $50K out of college, thus they assume it is normal to receive that as a starting salary. Of all my friends, none have received starting salaries, out of college, of more than $35K. Engineers, right now, are receiving the highest starting salary offers of $45 to $50K, depending on the type of engineering. But, just because one sees a higher starting salary, doesn't mean the salary will triple, or even double over time. My neighbor is an engineer, has been so for 15+ years, and he makes no more than a guy I know who is an RJ captain at Mesa. My sister is majoring in pharmacy. She can expect a starting salary of $60-$70K out of college, because pharmacists are in huge demand. It is seven years of schooling, and despite the large starting salary, her salary will top out around $80-$90K.

The problem with the regional airlines, is that people tend to focus on first year pay, alone. I know guys who made $20K their first, year, but now, a few years later, as a captain, they are pulling in $80K. You have to start somewhere.

 

[imacdog]

You have to start somewhere.

Right, and if your company goes through hard times, you have to start over somewhere else.

 

[Murdoughnut]

Very true. People have very wrong expectations of salaries. They hear of someone who received a starting salary of $50K out of college, thus they assume it is normal to receive that as a starting salary. Of all my friends, none have received starting salaries, out of college, of more than $35K. Engineers, right now, are receiving the highest starting salary offers of $45 to $50K, depending on the type of engineering. But, just because one sees a higher starting salary, doesn't mean the salary will triple, or even double over time. My neighbor is an engineer, has been so for 15+ years, and he makes no more than a guy I know who is an RJ captain at Mesa. My sister is majoring in pharmacy. She can expect a starting salary of $60-$70K out of college, because pharmacists are in huge demand. It is seven years of schooling, and despite the large starting salary, her salary will top out around $80-$90K.

The problem with the regional airlines, is that people tend to focus on first year pay, alone. I know guys who made $20K their first, year, but now, a few years later, as a captain, they are pulling in $80K. You have to start somewhere.

True true - my girlfriend made $35k her first year as an attorney - and she graduated from a top law school with a good class ranking. She could have made more if she wanted to work 60-80 hours a week, though.

That's something else I've noticed in the business world - while salaries are going down, the expectation of how much you'll work keeps going up. I refuse to work more than 40 hours a week, with the exception of every now and then when there's a pressing project. My boss worked 60 hours a week when he was in the ad business and gives me crap about it. I straight up told him that I just wasn't going to give up the time I spend with my families in the evening for an average salary - probably not for an additional 10 or 20k a year either.

It's gettin' rough out there fellas - keep your units on ya!

 

[PilotOnTheRise]

Right, and if your company goes through hard times, you have to start over somewhere else.

True, which is one of the negative things.

True true - my girlfriend made $35k her first year as an attorney - and she graduated from a top law school with a good class ranking. She could have made more if she wanted to work 60-80 hours a week, though.

That's something else I've noticed in the business world - while salaries are going down, the expectation of how much you'll work keeps going up. I refuse to work more than 40 hours a week, with the exception of every now and then when there's a pressing project. My boss worked 60 hours a week when he was in the ad business and gives me crap about it. I straight up told him that I just wasn't going to give up the time I spend with my families in the evening for an average salary - probably not for an additional 10 or 20k a year either.

It's gettin' rough out there fellas - keep your units on ya!

It is rough for everyone, and that is what I wish pilots would realize. I've talked to numerous people about flying, and the problems being faced in the airline industry, and the reply I usually get, is "that is going on everywhere". Nobody ever seems surprised at all.

You also make an interesting point about work weeks. Working 40 hours per week is quickly fading. It is becoming the 60 hour work week, with no extra pay for that extra time.

 

[mac36]

http://www.acinet.org/acinet/oview5...=&id=1,&nodeid=7&soccode=&stfips=00&x=43&y=13

check this out one more time out there somebody still have the idea that been a pilot is a great paying career.

If you been in it for some time you might be doing OK
But if you are just getting into it FORGET IT

http://www.jetuniversity.com/ pay $20,000 to fly a jet in 7 months
and make $19,000 a year

The chart you cite as evidence shows Airline pilot Median income at NUMBER 13 OF 799. Every single occupation ranked higher with exception of "Chief Executives" is a highly trained Medical Professional.

Judging by the sentence structure I see in this post, neither you, or I, had much chance at Med School.

The typical 5 year RJ Capt would fall about number 100 on the list your link provides.

Was the profession better at one time? Yes.

But it still ranks pretty high.

 

[hopalong]

People need to know the entire side of things, good, and bad. Letting them know about the negatives, is good. However, just make sure you aren't steering them in any direction. In your original post, you talked about having to peel their, and their teacher's/professor's faces off the ground when telling them about regional, and major pay. When I read that, the first thing I thought, is that you were telling them that you only make $20K, and things won't get better. If I were at a career day, and didn't know aby better about pilot pay, etc., and I were told $20K to start, $30-$40K after first year, $80K as a captain, majors captains make over $100K, etc., I wouldn't have been floored. I would have thought that was a good salary, and normal.

I do tell them what they can expect to make in the future. They are still
floored at starting salaries.

 

[PilotOnTheRise]

I do tell them what they can expect to make in the future. They are still
floored at starting salaries.

Cool. Well, no problem from me, then. I guess in the typical mind, you would think pilots would start out making more than $20K. But, some do, just depends. There are other options than the airlines. It just sounded like you were telling them about first year regional FO pay, and that was it.

The chart you cite as evidence shows Airline pilot Median income at NUMBER 13 OF 799. Every single occupation ranked higher with exception of "Chief Executives" is a highly trained Medical Professional.

Judging by the sentence structure I see in this post, neither you, or I, had much chance at Med School.

The typical 5 year RJ Capt would fall about number 100 on the list your link provides.

Was the profession better at one time? Yes.

But it still ranks pretty high.

You make an interesting point. Major airline captains are still earning in the top of incomes per career. Basically, only medical professionals, and CEOs have an 'average' higher salary.

As for regional captains ... they too would rank in the top 100. I would put them higher than number 100, however. Depending on the airline, many 5th year RJ captains are making more than $62,000.

A while back, I looked up the average salary for 168 of the most common jobs that people would go into, out of aviation. From medical, business, law, construction, real estate, etc. etc. Only 15 of those 168 jobs had an average salary above $80K, and of those 15, most included various medical professionals, and a few other careers. I would say that is fairly accurate. That would imply roughly, less than 10% earn six figure salaries. Being as though $80,000 is within the top 10% of income earners, that is probably very realistic. In other words, it would be hard to quit your job as a regional captain, and get another job making more, or at least, much more than your RJ CA salary. The one benefit would be being home every night, depending on the job.

For myself. I would rather make $70-$80, and if I spent a career, $90K+ as a RJ CA, than working 60 hours per week, behind a desk, in a cubicle, punching numbers as an accountant, for the same money. I would be miserable.

 

[geojet707]

The problem with the regional airlines, is that people tend to focus on first year pay, alone. I know guys who made $20K their first, year, but now, a few years later, as a captain, they are pulling in $80K. You have to start somewhere.

I agree, you have to start somewhere, but make it a semi-livable wage.The $19-22,000 per year that most average that first year (or even second year) will not stretch very far when you have to pay bills. Even if you are single, live at home and pay a small amount for a crash pad, its a tight squeeze. Throw in having a family, and it is almost impossible unless your spouse makes the $$.

In 1992 a friend of mine was an F/O for a regional, making $15,300 per year and on food stamps. About two years ago I received a call from another buddy who could not make ends meet flying for regional on his first year pay (Approx. $18,000 per year). This guy is single, lived with his mother, had burned through his savings to live in an EWR crash pad and had minimal other financial commitments. When is enough, enough?

In any professional capacity one has to play the waiting game to progress forward. But it is a fallacy to believe we must all "start somewhere" and keep accepting these pathetic, non-livable initial pay scales.

My .02

 

[joeyfly55]

Well Said Geojet!!! I Agree 110%!!