NORTHWEST PILOTS: Why take this T.A.?

[JohnDoe]

quote:
"My guess is that the NWA mainline will end up around 3,000 - 3,500 jobs."


Furloughed: Let me get this straight, going down to a 3000 pilot workforce is your idea of, and I quote, "most will keep their jobs"????

Also, you ask if they can fly RJ's to China. No, they can't. But the new certificate can. They are allowed to start this sjet, it gets sold, new owner gets big airplanes. What is going to stop them?


I gotta add that anybody voting "yes" to this TA in the hopes of saving their pension is nuts. Once the company gets this approved, the pensions are history. Why? First, it appears that this TA contains no penalty whatsoever if they do it. Second, if it passes, they know the pilot group would do absolutely nothing to stop it. Strike? Please.....can you say the "boy that cried wolf" 20 times? The mechanics, bridge 2, this new bridge 3.....etc. etc..

 

[IB6 UB9]

yourpilot, hasn't NWA tried raising ticket prices over the couple past years, and each time they saw an almost instant drop in resevations that forced them to rescind the ticket increase? No one else in the industry followed the ticket price increase.

I hope that was sarcasm.

 

[IB6 UB9]

Yep. Furloughed from NW Sept 2002.

Not sure if I'm going back but I am tired of pilots from OTHER AIRLINES telling NW guys what we should do...

Buddy, almost everytime I catch a ride on your airline I get a lecture on what I should do.

 

[NuGuy]

If the fares were raised about 10% NWA could offer back the 2003 contract and generate a significant profit.

I wouldn't listen to this person... He/she is just a ATI pilot wanabee that apparently doesn't have enough work up on the 3rd floor of building N to keep him/her busy. Probably a little Minnesota cabin fever, too.

He/she is probably pissed that the company won't fork over that coveted seniority number.

By the way YPF, your simulator jollies are going to be significantly reduced when real pilots start requesting real pilots for seat support.

Nu

PS By an informal poll, the TA is going down in flames. Afterwards, either the MEC Chair and the negotiating committee resigns, or they'll be recalled.

Stand by for the fun...I wouldn't start worrying about the QoL at SJet quite yet.

 

[okcplt]

Telling people if they don't like it, just quit is rediculous.

So WHO is saying "enough is enough" and "stand up for the profession"? That would be ME and the HUNDREDS OF OTHER Pinnacle pilots who are ready TO LOSE OUR JOBS when you guys walk.

So...

Which is it?

Sounds pretty hypocritical to me.

 

[doh]

The important thing is that they captured the flying above 76 seats (with the exception of 55 airplanes that already exist)....That is very important and along with USair having 70-110 seat aircraft at USair sets a precident that others will follow.

The pay sucks, the work rules suck and everything about it sucks.....BUT NWA pilots now have the opportunity to keep their own on property and the possibility of fixing it later which is very important. This is what should have happened to all Jet aircraft.....EMB's flying at the regionals is part of what destroyed this industry by lowering the QOL and compensation of the piloting profession. It all trickled up to the majors when nobody thought it could.

Thank you for trying to save our profession USair and NWA.

The he!! I didn't think it could trickle up! I said it a long time ago; when you let management outsource, they say "we can do anything we want now", and they proceed to take it all! Getting the flying back under ONE certificate is now all but impossible. And so this flying, even if done by NWA furloughs, is not NWA flying. Just another farmed out shame!

 

[Hvy]

quote:
"hasn't NWA tried raising ticket prices over the couple past years, and each time they saw an almost instant drop in resevations that forced them to rescind the ticket increase? No one else in the industry followed the ticket price increase."



Are you kidding???? Northwest is the one that refused to go along with alot of the price increases. Part of their brilliant "last man standing" strategy.

Exactly!

 

[Ty Webb]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 135Drvr

What I really think needs to be done is for ALPA to step up and say "Look, this is the rate for an ALPA Pilot flying equipment A and this is the rate for B. Now set your ticket prices accordingly! If not we'll shut down the country for a day."






Absolutely, positively could not agree more. Sign me and the 1230 non-scabs at AirTran up for the "Day of Shame" too.

After looking at the TA proposal, I have to say, this part of the proposal will bite you in the hindquarters more than you might think:

Redefine “Hours Flown” to pay scheduled vs. actual on a per trip basis, rather​

than a per-flight basis.

On my last trip, for example, the first day went 38 minutes over due to T-storms and some problems at the gate ($76. I earned every penny of) . . . . but the last day, which was a Sunday, found us boogeying out of LGA early, and got in 14 minutes early. Under your TA, I would have been penalized $28. for getting in early! Or, I could have just slowed WAY down on that Sunday, so as not to lose money . . . . .

Smart move for mgmnt to ask for this? I don't think so, but what do I know? I'm just a lowly "yoke and throttle operator" from Sector 7-G.​

PS, the other 70 AirTran pilots . . . the EAL scabs . . . think "Hvy" is "right on" and are digging his posts. They also would like to see pictures of him in a "bannana hammock" whatever that is.

 

[Lear70]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lear70
Telling people if they don't like it, just quit is rediculous.





Quote:
Originally Posted by Lear70
So WHO is saying "enough is enough" and "stand up for the profession"? That would be ME and the HUNDREDS OF OTHER Pinnacle pilots who are ready TO LOSE OUR JOBS when you guys walk.

So...

Which is it?

Sounds pretty hypocritical to me.

Then you need reading comprehension lessons.

Telling SOMEONE ELSE to quit if they don't like it is NOT what I stated in the second paragraph. That's what YOU said.

What I said was that MANY OF US here at Pinnacle have expressed our willingness to be furlough fodder in order to help stop this T.A. from going through. That's not TELLING other people what to do with their lives, that's taking PERSONAL PROFESSIONAL RESPONSIBILITY for your own future.

Like I said, I wouldn't expect you to understand the difference. Everyone else seems to be getting it though except for YourManagementFriend and you which is exactly why I started this thread. I'm glad it's contributing to some debate and I can only hope that the debate carries over to the line at Northwest and further fuels the fire for a NO vote.

 

[michael707767]

aa73 words of wisdom, why will this TA be accepted, because the average NWA pilot will be better off under this agreement than under the roof of the unemployment line, keep the job fix it or make it better later.

The problem with this thinking is it will be used against you again. A year from now if they ask for another 10% pay cut, will you say the same thing? Cause the fact is even with another 10% cut this job is better than the unemployement line.

At some point though, you have to say no or they will keep coming back for more.

 

[81Horse]

... Once the company gets this approved, the pensions are history. Why? First, it appears that this TA contains no penalty whatsoever if they do it. ...

Crucial point -- and one BIG reason the whole TA is no slam dunk; even pilots who are wistfully making retirement plans based on their frozen pensions are going to find it difficult to vote for it.

Plus, the federal pension relief legislation is still not a done deal.

 

[furloughed dude]

Lear70,

Gotta love it when a Pinnacle guy tells others to defend the profession. You sold out the profession big time.

By the way, everyone knows that the pension is goners. They are trying to save some jobs rather than liquidate. I don't believe they will get a better deal if they don't ratify the TA. I believe the outcome will be liquidation.

Bottom line: I don't see NWA getting a better deal. I know it sucks, but it beats working at Pinnacle (at least for the top 3,000 or so).

 

[Freight Dog]

The sad and sorry truth is that this TA will pass with a considerable margin. Just like every ALPA group folded so far, NWA will be no different. All in the interest of "living to fight another day."

I just don't see too many pilots today having the backbone to truly be willing to walk away from their job despite strike votes and the chest thumping. No passenger airline pilot group since 9/11 has been willing to call the management bluff and/or walk out.

Since 9/11, we (ALPA) have sold our retirees down the river. These were the people who built this profession through tough negotiations, strikes, furloughs, you name it... They passed it on to our generation of pilots, and we f*cked it all up. Not only did we manage to f*ck up everything they worked for, but we managed to f*ck them over by voting for giving away pensions. Our Director of Safety at AQ is a retired B747-400 captain from UAL who lost a huge chunk of his pension. He dedicated over 30 years to ALPA Safety, walked the picket line in 1985, and our generation of pilots sold him down the river. How many thousands of others like him have we sold out?

In retrospect, Duane Woerth should have vetoed US Air's contract when it included dumping the pensions, and if any judge threw out the pensions, we should have done nationwide S.O.S.

But no, we didn't have the balls to call the management out and tell them to stuff their concession package where the sun don't shine. No ALPA group has had the cojones so far. We folded like a house of cards one after another all in the interest of "living to fight another day." In the meanwhile, the airline CEO compensation packages have gone through the roof. What's wrong with that picture?

NWA pilots will collectively do they think is best for them. Until we get true leadership at Herndon with cojones that is capable of thinking outside the box, this pattern of abuse will continue.

 

[Lear70]

Lear70,

Gotta love it when a Pinnacle guy tells others to defend the profession. You sold out the profession big time.

I sold out the profession? ME personally? Pray tell me HOW did I do that?

I wasn't here when the last contract was signed.

I refused to come here as an F/O, I refused to come here unless I was paid during training and given single occupancy hotel. I held out for everything I believed was right, and I got it.

I have 6 months of money saved up for my strike fund and have fully backed every single thing our MEC has asked us to, including walking the picket lines with Mesaba pilots, Northwest mechanics, and more.

So please, EXACTLY, how have I sold out the profession?

By the way, everyone knows that the pension is goners. They are trying to save some jobs rather than liquidate.

Tell that to the red book guys. They still seem to think otherwise, been asking just about every senior NWA pilot I run into. Delusional. If they truly KNEW their pensions were gone and they were only a year or two from retirement, I bet the number of NO votes from red book pilots would increase EXPONENTIALLY.

I don't believe they will get a better deal if they don't ratify the TA. I believe the outcome will be liquidation.

And I believe you're wrong. Taking the company to the brink of liquidation is the ONLY way to get a REAL, MUTUALLY BENEFICIAL agreement out of Steenland and his management group. You should know that by now.

Bottom line: I don't see NWA getting a better deal. I know it sucks, but it beats working at Pinnacle (at least for the top 3,000 or so).

And there you have it in a nutshell. The top people willing to sell out the bottom people just to keep what they have.

Pathetic.

 

[pilotyip]

"And there you have it in a nutshell. The top people willing to sell out the bottom people just to keep what they have".
Yea that is the reality of facing unemployment in your 50's

 

[banned username 1]

All of these debates have merit because the issues are serious as a heart attack. They flourish all over this board as well as on other forums too.

If you look at the stats of the number of members online at any one time, it generally trends to 1/3 members and 2/3 "guests". I've always wondered who all of those "guests" are. Don't think for a minute that your adversaries in all this aren't reading all of these posts. As you know, they don't wish you well.

Just something to remember as you post. I don't want to give some pencil-neck consultant a reason to smile as they bill their clients $200 per hour to gather information on ANY pilot group to be used against them.

Lastly, with the anonymity here, the only person I know with certainty to be who he says he is, is ME. Avoid the baiting from others, because you don't know who they might be. This forum can be a very cost effective tool to cause dissention, spread dis and mis-information between pilot groups, and generally just cause you trouble. Look out for yourselves and your careers. Don't fall victim to those who may attempt to stir you up and lash back or even worse, take your emotions to work.

Rely on those who over the long-haul have proved to be credible and solid. All of the others will have to earn the right to be listened to.

Keep your eyes forward.

 

[hoover]

cost cuts, labor concessions, bankruptcy, labor concessions, 1113c, labor concessions...

...or they could just raised the fares!!!

It is absolutely amazing to me the lengths to which management will go to avoid raising fares to cover their costs of doing business.

My question to airline management is this: When you have cut everything you can, and you still aren't making money, what the are you going to do then?

 

[IXLR8]

My question to airline management is this: When you have cut everything you can, and you still aren't making money, what the are you going to do then?

More layoffs.....

 

[pilotyip]

In the end it is the ability to attract capital at a reasonable cost that will determine the long-term survival of any company. As stated in a Detroit Free Press article last week settling with the pilots is the first of 8 steps back to profitability. One of the next steps is attracting new capital. Without proving to the capital markets that their costs are under control, there will be no new capital. That in the end will determine the future of NWA. It is not labor, it is not management, it is capital

 

[titans10]

As a furloughed NWA pilot I would not go fly for$24 per hour and I would vote no. Someone has to stop this. With the unlimited 50 seat flying there goes most if not all DC-9 flying. JUst watch

 

[turbinej]

I don't know where exactly the CRJ-200 will be coming from canadair stopped production of this aircraft this past Jan 06. CRJ's that were available have found work overseas. The only 50 seater still being made is by Embrear. Unless they get abother carrier to fly 50 seaters that already have them besides PCL or Mesaba, which only have two.

 

[BoilerUP]

There are plenty of -200s currently in the desert, many having FlyI colors on them.

 

[Freight Dog]

The airlines will squeeze every last drop of blood out of labor with contracts thru 2009 - 2012. All concessionary. Then when it's all settled, watch them gradually raise the fares to where they should have been all along. With labor costs locked to record low levels, the airlines will start raking in some obscene profits again, and labor having signed these concessionary contracts will be left holding a bag not being able to do a damn thing about it. Then come contract negotiations, we'll demand our share, and we'll be told to piss off again because the airlines will be hitting hard times.

I'm with pilotyip when he says there's gonna be a boom in 2007... the question is a boom for whom?

 

[XJohXJ]

All of these debates have merit because the issues are serious as a heart attack. They flourish all over this board as well as on other forums too.

If you look at the stats of the number of members online at any one time, it generally trends to 1/3 members and 2/3 "guests". I've always wondered who all of those "guests" are. Don't think for a minute that your adversaries in all this aren't reading all of these posts. As you know, they don't wish you well.

Just something to remember as you post. I don't want to give some pencil-neck consultant a reason to smile as they bill their clients $200 per hour to gather information on ANY pilot group to be used against them.

Lastly, with the anonymity here, the only person I know with certainty to be who he says he is, is ME. Avoid the baiting from others, because you don't know who they might be. This forum can be a very cost effective tool to cause dissention, spread dis and mis-information between pilot groups, and generally just cause you trouble. Look out for yourselves and your careers. Don't fall victim to those who may attempt to stir you up and lash back or even worse, take your emotions to work.

Rely on those who over the long-haul have proved to be credible and solid. All of the others will have to earn the right to be listened to.

Keep your eyes forward.

Right on, and worth re-posting.

Remember, the LEAST of managements consultants gets paid a lot more than any pilot does!