NORTHWEST PILOTS: Why take this T.A.?

[Lear70]

I'm deadly serious here, all of us are wondering why this T.A. is even under serious consideration.

Please, NO regional pilots answer this unless you are furloughed NWA. This question is to try to understand the NWA pilot's thoughts.

Points to ponder:

1. It is a TOTAL reversal of position from NWA ALPA MEC when they came to you and requested a strike vote. They obtained that strike vote with an overwhelming majority then gave Northwest Scope relief ANYWAY.

2. THERE IS NO PENSION PROTECTION. Quite the opposite, there are provisions specifically dealing with a PBGC takeover. Your pensions are GONE, there isn't a SINGLE red-book pilot on property who should be voting for this.

3. The DC-9's are GONE, or at least a large percentage of them in VERY short order. We thought it would take several years to get the replacement aircraft spooled up, but with the purchase of FlyI's certificate, it looks like they could be up and running with MOST of the replacement aircraft in 18-24 months. Can't think of a SINGLE DC-9 F/O or junior Captain who should be voting for this.

4. The wages for SJet are about 75% of what the interim pay cuts are. That means you're going to take an approximate 65% pay cut to go to SJet from 1998 levels? (49% interim pay cut, 25% pay cut to go to SJet). What pilot is going to take a job making $36,000 a year at 40 years old in the right seat of an RJ or even $75,000 in the left? THIS IS FOR THE DC-9 REPLACEMENTS, so all you DC-9 guys and gals, take a GOOD look at what you're signing up for to make in the next 2 years or so.

Again, this is a lose-lose agreement, no one wins except management. With all the drum-beating of NWA ALPA, I haven't heard a SINGLE coherent outcry from the super-senior or fairly junior group who stand to lose the most from this deal.

WHY?

What makes this deal so livable? SOMEONE please enlighten me how half of your seniority list that stands to lose their jobs / pensions thinks this is acceptable?

ANYONE?

 

[aa73]

I'm all ears.... especially since we (AA pilots) are probably looking at something like this being shoved in our faces in the next couple of years. I hope to be able to say, "we were as ballsy as the NWA pilots in rejecting this POS..."

 

[HalinTexas]

This deal is worse than the ATA "deal" we got last year.

It's time for ALPA to make a stand. Is this the place? I hope so.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

The scope relief is now industry standard, i'm not surprised by the reaction from our regional guys. I know you guys rationalized that you would get the 76 seat jets, but I warned you otherwise. Would you be complaining about the TA if it said Pinnacle to receive 55 76 jets ontop of the 50 seaters? Well this isn;t over yet so sit tight and watch Mesaba, that's going to be a show.

 

[Mr Hat]

The important thing is that they captured the flying above 76 seats (with the exception of 55 airplanes that already exist)....That is very important and along with USair having 70-110 seat aircraft at USair sets a precident that others will follow.

The pay sucks, the work rules suck and everything about it sucks.....BUT NWA pilots now have the opportunity to keep their own on property and the possibility of fixing it later which is very important. This is what should have happened to all Jet aircraft.....EMB's flying at the regionals is part of what destroyed this industry by lowering the QOL and compensation of the piloting profession. It all trickled up to the majors when nobody thought it could.

Thank you for trying to save our profession USair and NWA.

 

[aa73]

The important thing is that they captured the flying above 76 seats (with the exception of 55 airplanes that already exist)....That is very important and along with USair having 70-110 seat aircraft at USair sets a precident that others will follow.

The pay sucks, the work rules suck and everything about it sucks.....BUT NWA pilots now have the opportunity to keep their own on property and the possibility of fixing it later which is very important. This is what should have happened to all Jet aircraft.....EMB's flying at the regionals is part of what destroyed this industry by lowering the QOL and compensation of the piloting profession. It all trickled up to the majors when nobody thought it could.

Thank you for trying to save our profession USair and NWA.

This is a true statement, and may be the only reason why NWa pilots vote it in. Secure the flying and the jets now, work on pay and QOL later.

A little history - in '97 AA pilots had a chance to take an industry-lagging contract in exchange for 50 seat flying, and "struck" over it. In 2000 they once again had a chance to capture 51+ seats in exchange for an (only) 8% raise (which was dismal compared to the new UAL 2000 contract) - and they voted it down. Now hopefully we are learning from these mistakes, as evidenced by USAir, DAL and now, NWA.

The message is clear - get the jets on the property now, work on the rest of the stuff later. The pay might suck at first, but it is your flying, which equals jobs.

 

[pilotyip]

aa73 words of wisdom, why will this TA be accepted, because the average NWA pilot will be better off under this agreement than under the roof of the unemployment line, keep the job fix it or make it better later.

 

[Lear70]

This is a true statement, and may be the only reason why NWa pilots vote it in. Secure the flying and the jets now, work on pay and QOL later.

The message is clear - get the jets on the property now, work on the rest of the stuff later. The pay might suck at first, but it is your flying, which equals jobs.

So how has this worked anywhere else?

Answer: it hasn't. Everyone is going to be working under these abysmal work rules and pay for YEARS.

At what point do you think they're going to get their pay and QOL back to CURRENT levels (49% pay cut)? 4 year contract plus 2 or 3 to negotiate a new one = 6-7 years from now? That would make the average NWA pilot around age 45 in the year 2012 or 2013.

Then another 6-7 years down the road, they get pay and QOL HALF of what they lost in the interim agreement of last year, making the average NWA pilot around age 52 in the year 2018 or 2019.

Then another 6-7 years down the road, they get pay and QOL back to what it was in the 1998 agreement. 20 years AFTER THE FACT, not to include the COLA adjustments lost during those 20 years and those pilots FINALLY get back to where they were in pay. 1 year before they hit age 60.

AND ALL OF THAT ASSUMES A 20-25% PAY AND QOL INCREASE EVERY TIME THEY NEGOTIATE A NEW CONTRACT. Pretty hefty assumption, especially since we don't believe that all these cuts will make Northwest profitable. Will NWA be profitable each year of negotiations? Not likely. So how well do you think the above can be realized?

Yeah, that's acceptable. NOT.

Do you realize that those pay increases I mention above BARELY cover a 3% Cost Of Living Adjustment over that term?

So, basically, under your theory of "capture the flying now, capture pay and QOL later", these guys and gals will NEVER see an increase in their equivalent take-home pay in terms of today's dollars.

Chew on that for a while.

 

[PCL_128]

Would you be complaining about the TA if it said Pinnacle to receive 55 76 jets ontop of the 50 seaters?

Yes. Heck, I'm still complaining that you let us have 50 seaters!!! Jets should never have gone to the feeders. Plain and simple. Allowing bigger and bigger planes to be outsourced is ridiculous. Have you guys learned nothing in the past 15 years? Half of all Delta flying is now done by feeder carriers. Half!!! What will it take for you to realize just how stupid it is to allow outsourcing of your flying? Talk to your Council 20 Chairman. Captain Miller is staunchly opposed to this TA. He feels that the NC didn't do what they were told to do by the pilot group and MEC. He feels that letting this flying go is a big mistake. For Heaven's sake people, listen to him!

 

[Boeingman]

I have to agree with Lear, this TA doesn't fix anything that NWA pilots have said they would strike for.

Another red flag is why does management want to operate these aircraft under a seperate certificate? Technically, they are only on property in theory. Under the different certificate they can be broken off later and sold. I thought the whole point was fighting a new subsidary? Does anyone at Northwest actually trust Steenland?

Will some ALPA pilot group finally smarten up and say enough?

 

[aa73]

So, basically, under your theory of "capture the flying now, capture pay and QOL later", these guys and gals will NEVER see an increase in their equivalent take-home pay in terms of today's dollars.

I'm not saying that this is the answer... I'm just pointing out that, at some point in his career, a pilot will have to choose between keeping wages at a decent level and letting all SJs go to Express carriers - which will result in massive mainline furloughs - or accepting a pay cut in exchange for keeping those jets at mainline. AA pilots had this choice in '97, but because of their egos (I ain't flyin' no stinkin' RJ!) they mired themselves into the biggest scope dilemma known to man, and it is still going on today (AA mainline shrinking, Eagle growing and replacing.)

 

[furloughed dude]

Lear 70,

This deal sucks, no doubt about it, but what is the option? Liquidation? Unfortunately, the pilots have very little (no) leverage. I love the guys that say "enough is enough" and "stand up for the profession." Meanwhile people will jump on these low paying regional jobs like a trucker on a hooker. It always seems like someone else wants another company's pilots to stand up and fight the good fight.

Pensions are gone at NWA (and most likely all other carriers, including UPS and FDX) and everyone knows it. But also, the top 3,000-4,000 will still have a job, and in this market, that is about as good as it gets. The industry is quickly heading toward very low pay, no pensions, and crappy working conditions. It is a supply and demand, and pilots are in supply and have proven time and time again, that they will undercut each other.

So, what is the option? Ratify this terrible TA or liquidate the airline. With the entire market in the $hitter, I don't see much of a choice. I think they negotiated about the best deal that they could under the circumstances. I see it passing easily, but I guess we will see...

 

[pilotyip]

aa73, again we have to remember this is a pilot board and it does not deal with reality.

 

[buttercup]

And these are the same guys who routinely deny JBLU jumpseaters who are just trying to get home to their families? Bunch of all talk, no backbone pansies.

 

[81Horse]

From the Council 20 (DTW) LEC Chairman:

... The greatest travesty, in my opinion, is the time we have invested in what has become a bad investment. Time can never be recovered. Some of us have invested more than others. Some will cut their losses and find a better, more rewarding career. (For those pilots who can, you owe it to yourself and your family to do so.) The effect of this TA is not just the six to eight years we will be exposed to the terms, but it is career-altering for most pilots who are not in their final years at NWA. You will be better off finding something that pays more, has better benefits (including retirement), and affords your family a better quality of life. There are MANY alternative careers that will likely be more rewarding. Taxi drivers, bus drivers, teachers, postal workers, and even some secretaries make more than many airline pilots. Often pilots have advanced degrees and experience in other more rewarding professions. If a career in commercial aviation is not going to provide a respectable standard of living, acceptable work rules, and a retirement that will support us after retirement, it is time to take a stand, or move on to something better. This TA seems to protect pilot jobs, but in the process we seem to have simply traded good jobs for bad (and even more so for the more junior pilots). While we have provided alternative employment (with a subsidiary or another carrier) for our most junior pilots, we may have facilitated their furlough. There are times when job security (and our scope) can be a ball and chain. So the good news may be that our furloughed pilots will have pilot jobs available, but the bad news is the jobs will likely not be worth having for many of those pilots. ...

He went on to recommend a NO vote on the T/A. The MEC Chairman has made a personal YES vote recommendation. The entire MEC has yet to issue an official recommendation to the membership.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

My biggest fear is that once the industry standard is lowered, the LCC's will have to lower their rates to regain the losing ground they are facing. Pilots at SWA should be getting about a 20%-40% paycut over the next few years to keep their competitive edge. They could expect even more now that NWA will be paying regional rates at the mainline. Give it a few more years, and we are back in the position we are today. Will SWA pilots have the balls to strike when they start to receive their paycuts?

 

[LaidOffAgain]

JS deny?

And these are the same guys who routinely deny JBLU jumpseaters who are just trying to get home to their families? Bunch of all talk, no backbone pansies.

Do you know what your talking about? The entire last year that I was still employed at NWA I had never seen a Capt deny a JSer no matter what airline. So get your story straight. Got to love the facts huh?

 

[buttercup]

Do you know what your talking about? The entire last year that I was still employed at NWA I had never seen a Capt deny a JSer no matter what airline. So get your story straight. Got to love the facts huh?

Oh I see so you never saw it happen so it's not a fact?

 

[Falcon Jet 1]

I dont think your going to see paycuts at Swa in the near future, because of our productivity our Pilot casm is still lower than all of the legacies and about even with Jetblue and Airtran. Which Airtran and Jetblue will continue to increase with maturity.

 

[Green]

The important thing is that they captured the flying above 76 seats (with the exception of 55 airplanes that already exist)....That is very important and along with USair having 70-110 seat aircraft at USair sets a precident that others will follow.

The pay sucks, the work rules suck and everything about it sucks.....BUT NWA pilots now have the opportunity to keep their own on property and the possibility of fixing it later which is very important. This is what should have happened to all Jet aircraft.....EMB's flying at the regionals is part of what destroyed this industry by lowering the QOL and compensation of the piloting profession. It all trickled up to the majors when nobody thought it could.

Thank you for trying to save our profession USair and NWA.

You know what is interesting is that they already have all flying above 76 seats don't they? It is part of their current scope agreement. Management would already have tons of 190's at the regional level if they could. So why would NWA Alpa have to give concessions in order to secure flying that already belongs to mainline????

Negotiations are supposed to be give and take and I don't see NWA pilots getting anything out of this deal. Maybe if you got an ownership stake in the company and a guarantee of new management it might be worth voting for.

Although AAA pay is already abysmally low we did not have to give paycuts to get 190's. We had to agree to sub-standard rates in order to fly them but the rest of the fleet types did not have to take a massive cut in order to "secure" the flying. Furthermore, they are growth aircraft not replacement aircraft. So at AAA you are not going to see a large percentage of pilots already on the property forced from a higher paying aircraft to a substantially lower paying one.

NWA management really seems to be going for the jugular this time. Too bad there isn't more time because it appears as if the industry might finally be starting to recover....

Good luck guys/gals and sorry we couldn't set the bar higher for 190 pay at Us Airways.....

 

[LaidOffAgain]

Oh I see so you never saw it happen so it's not a fact?

I am sure it happened to you all the time. There can be d%ckheads at any airline, not just those pansy NWA guys(as you called us). And my guess those jerks would be jerks to any pilot, not just JetBlue guys?

 

[IB6 UB9]

Do you know what your talking about? The entire last year that I was still employed at NWA I had never seen a Capt deny a JSer no matter what airline. So get your story straight. Got to love the facts huh?

I beg to differ sir.

 

[banned username 1]

My biggest fear is that once the industry standard is lowered, the LCC's will have to lower their rates to regain the losing ground they are facing.


It's already started. All you have to do is look at the Regionals Forum to see your prediction come true. It's even uglier there than it is here because they don't have as far to go before you hit the "bottom", wherever that is.

Managements are exploiting "Human Nature 101" (and that is that no matter where you are, there are 10 people willing to do your job for less money than you are). Sad, but true.

 

[XJohXJ]

You've got that right, UAL78! Why do you think bush wants to relax rules on foriegn ownership? Because citizens won't be able to afford regional jobs. $10,700 a year for an FO at Mesaba? Give me a friggin break.

 

[Lear70]

81Horse, you hit the nail right on the head.

I've read that letter, and yes, it should be a HUGE warning flag to the pilots at Northwest when THEIR OWN LEC CHAIRMAN says this T.A. is a big, steaming, pile of crap.

Lear 70,

This deal sucks, no doubt about it, but what is the option? Liquidation? Unfortunately, the pilots have very little (no) leverage. I love the guys that say "enough is enough" and "stand up for the profession." Meanwhile people will jump on these low paying regional jobs like a trucker on a hooker. It always seems like someone else wants another company's pilots to stand up and fight the good fight.

So basically you're telling me you'd rather make $36,000 a year in an RJ than go hump charter or even do something else for a profession? That you'd rather see this profession degraded to little more than a janitor's wage and respect?

And you try to blame it on other pilots? That sir, is a cop-out. YOU are the one with the POWER to vote NO. So grow a back bone and vote it for YOUR contract, not for what a regional pilot might or might not work for at some other carrier.

Northwest isn't in bad enough shape to need the COMPLETE ground-giving T.A. that this thing is. When are YOU guys going to stand up FOR YOURSELVES ??!!

So, what is the option? Ratify this terrible TA or liquidate the airline. With the entire market in the $hitter, I don't see much of a choice. I think they negotiated about the best deal that they could under the circumstances. I see it passing easily, but I guess we will see...

The "option" is to vote "NO", let the judge rule how he will, and IF the company tries to impose terms. Walk. Guess what happens to MY job? That's right, it's GONE.

So WHO is saying "enough is enough" and "stand up for the profession"? That would be ME and the HUNDREDS OF OTHER Pinnacle pilots who are ready TO LOSE OUR JOBS when you guys walk.

p.s. Don't think UPS or FedEx are going to terminate their pensions anytime soon. They are in bitter Section 6 negotiations because THEY CAN'T FIND PLACES TO HIDE THE MONEY THEY ARE MAKING HAND OVER FIST. Hard to terminate a pension when you're the most profitable airlines on the planet.

 

[800Dog]

81Horse, you hit the nail right on the head.

I've read that letter, and yes, it should be a HUGE warning flag to the pilots at Northwest when THEIR OWN LEC CHAIRMAN says this T.A. is a big, steaming, pile of crap.


So basically you're telling me you'd rather make $36,000 a year in an RJ than go hump charter or even do something else for a profession? That you'd rather see this profession degraded to little more than a janitor's wage and respect?

And you try to blame it on other pilots? That sir, is a cop-out. YOU are the one with the POWER to vote NO. So grow a back bone and vote it for YOUR contract, not for what a regional pilot might or might not work for at some other carrier.

Northwest isn't in bad enough shape to need the COMPLETE ground-giving T.A. that this thing is. When are YOU guys going to stand up FOR YOURSELVES ??!!


The "option" is to vote "NO", let the judge rule how he will, and IF the company tries to impose terms. Walk. Guess what happens to MY job? That's right, it's GONE.

So WHO is saying "enough is enough" and "stand up for the profession"? That would be ME and the HUNDREDS OF OTHER Pinnacle pilots who are ready TO LOSE OUR JOBS when you guys walk.

p.s. Don't think UPS or FedEx are going to terminate their pensions anytime soon. They are in bitter Section 6 negotiations because THEY CAN'T FIND PLACES TO HIDE THE MONEY THEY ARE MAKING HAND OVER FIST. Hard to terminate a pension when you're the most profitable airlines on the planet.

Well said. As a Deltoid, I hope we strike when the pile of s**t similar to this NWA TA comes to a vote. Enough is enough. If Delta liquidates, so be it. I had rather start over in a new field and spend more time with my Family. Best of luck to you NWA folks.

 

[Frank Lorenzo]

I'm glad to see that cool heads will prevail here. Guys like aa73 and pilotyip see the big picture. Pilots have no skills outside of flying. It's either take the pay cut, or the airline liquidates and "Hello Wal-Mart."

There is also a silver lining in voting yes. The NWA pilots sacrificing their pay will allow the company to keep top talent like Doug Steenland and pay him the eight digit salary he so richly deserves.

So what if a few more pilots get furloughed. Dave Siegel and I both have new lakefront properties that could use some landscaping. Between that and caddying for us at the country club, we'll keep you pilots employed.

 

[YourPilotFriend]

I dont think your going to see paycuts at Swa in the near future, because of our productivity our Pilot casm is still lower than all of the legacies and about even with Jetblue and Airtran. Which Airtran and Jetblue will continue to increase with maturity.

I said that exact phrase at NWA in 1999.

 

[FlyingFarmer]

So this TA keeps flying and aircraft at nwa. Would someone show me just where in the heck it says that? I can't find that language anywhere. What prevents this newco from being sold off like Usair's midatlantic? It's a different operating cert. people. Midatlantic didn't even have a different certificate and look at what happened to them! Those aircraft and jobs are GONE! This TA HAS GOT TO BE VOTED DOWN! If it gets a yes vote there is just going to be more ac going to pinnacle or mesaba, or even worse, another wholly owned carrier to further fragment existing NWA flying and jobs. My prediction? You guys are screwed.

 

[furloughed dude]

Lear 70,

You crack me up.... I see you flew the CL-65, for who? And at what rate? I'll bet you were earning the big bucks and "defending your profession." You expect other people to give up their jobs when toads like you will pick up the scraps and work for regional rates. But that was ok when you were doing it, right?

NWA isn't in that bad of shape? Think again pal. Obviously they are in Chap 11, have a ruthless management team, and the pilots have almost no leverage. And there are tons of good jobs out there these days... Fedex and UPS are the only two jobs worth having these days and they can't hire everybody.

The bar was lowered by Jetblue with their EMB 190 rates, from now on the 100 seat jet market will be paid chump change. And you know there will be thousands of people applying for these jobs.

So you can talk about "standing up for yourselves" and that kind of BS, but the fact is that you want someone else to "stand up." This TA will pass with a 60% margin (just my guess) and most will keep their jobs. I don't see that they have any other choice. I might agree with you if this were a "company problem," but it is an "industry problem." There are very few quality jobs to go to and they can take this crappy deal or try to find another job. I do believe SWA will eventually take pay cuts and CAL no major airline with the possible exception of UPS or Fedex will have an A fund type pension.

Bottom line is that this isn't the career that it used to be.