Northwest Pilots Stand to Gain Alot....

[DTW320]

How are you selling your seniority if you end up at the same relative place post merger that you had pre merger?

Particularly when you reap higher pay raises than the next guy and gain access to twice as much premium flying than you brought to the table.

Is relative seniority DALPA's position in this negotiation? Haven't heard any facts from either MEC and, no, GL posting newsclips from the east-des moines register doesn't count. Your 75/76 pays about 10% more than our 75 just like every other category comparison. Does that mean our 75 rates are pretty good since they are 10% from your widebody 76 rates or does it mean your 76 rates are pretty bad? My point is what defines this "twice as much premium flying" you keep referring to? You guys are using the 75/76 equation to make that statement when, in fact, the comparison is the same. IF your 75/76 paid the same as your 76-400 THEN I would agree that the big number of 75/76 you bring does matter. Otherwise there's nothing about your 75/76 that makes any NWA pilot drool...its 10% more hourly rate just like everything else.

 

[DTW320]

The NWA guys default position is arbitration, even when handed a victory without fighting. What can you do but walk away?

You know this to be factual? Reference please. Your REP told you this?

Anderson has surely seen all this before and dare I say, that D ALPA and Management are together on this.

We know him a lot better than you. That's a mighty big "dare" you're taking.

 

[AirportBum]

Just curious where all you Delta pilots are getting this notion that the NWA negotiating committee's "default" position is to push for arbitration.

The little bit of "actual" information (that is information from a reliable source, such as our MEC/LEC reps, NOT Liz Fedor or General Lee) hasn't come close to mentioning that we're pushing for arbitration. We would be stupid to let a judge decide something that we're perfectly capable of negotiating on our own.

For the record, the official position of our negotiating team (as deciminated by our reps) is that they are trying their best to work out a deal, but that "seniority is not for sale."

Question where you get your information from. NWA's pilots are NOT pushing for arbitration.

The question is to merge based on a fair SLI, or not to merge due to a lack of a fair SLI.

The question is NOT to negotiate or wait for arbitration.

I personally think this merger can be a good thing, if we can all get our egos in check. We are potentially leaving money on the table if we can't come together on this.

All of us need to do what we can to stem the flow of dis-information. That's exactly what the manipulators (management, investors, certain pilots with an agenda that benefits only themselves) want us to do.

 

[kwick]

If Delta doesn't give up their demand for "Super-Seniority," the deal is probably dead. Date of hire, plus adequate fences. Just like most other mergers among relative equals.

 

[formerdal]

If Delta doesn't give up their demand for "Super-Seniority," the deal is probably dead. Date of hire, plus adequate fences. Just like most other mergers among relative equals.

Delta is not looking for super-seniority. Delta is looking for relative percentage. The union is saying the proposal made to the NW merger committee keeps everyone at relative percentage +/-0.5%.

 

[jayme]

Half of the NW pilots will retire in the next 8-10 years.

The retirements that would have benefitted newhire nw pilots will be diluted over thousands of delta pilots.

A 10% raise does not properly compensate a pilot for postponing his upgrade for years.

 

[General Lee]

If Delta doesn't give up their demand for "Super-Seniority," the deal is probably dead. Date of hire, plus adequate fences. Just like most other mergers among relative equals.

What happened in the USAir/AWA arbitration? How did DOH go with the arbitrator? The bottom USAir guy, a 17 year pilot, remained the bottom guy. NWA has old planes with no replacements (for cargo birds and narrowbodies)---which could make any arbitrator think about possible career expectations. How about relative position and fences. That sounds more plausible.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[General Lee]

Half of the NW pilots will retire in the next 8-10 years.

The retirements that would have benefitted newhire nw pilots will be diluted over thousands of delta pilots.

A 10% raise does not properly compensate a pilot for postponing his upgrade for years.

It would be diluted if we stayed the same size. If we expand, everyone wins. Guess what? We are currently expanding, and the NWA guys on here keep saying they won't be shrinking. Problem solved.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Noserider76]

Relative seniority was an olive branch from the DL committee and is a windfall for the NW group in my opinion. The only way relative seniority would be fair is if both airlines brought the same fleet and PWA to the table. Many at DL will stagnate for years barring significant growth, if this goes through, if they're not willing to commute to DTW or MSP to upgrade on the DC-9. I'll live with whatever is decided but, is there a way to do this without fences to protect both sides expectations?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Half of the NW pilots will retire in the next 8-10 years.

Is that so? Who are you? Joe Isuzu? Tommy Falanagan?

Here are the real numbers according to Counsel 20's own analysis:

Year- Total/NWA/DAL
2009 - 9 9 0
2010 - 8 8 0
2011 - 15 15 0
2012 - 15 15 0
2013 - 26 24 2
2014 - 220 161 59
2015 - 253 187 66
2016 - 288 203 85
2017 - 338 214 124
2018 - 382 232 150
2019 - 465 259 206
2020 - 547 293 254
2021 - 602 285 317
2022 - 780 327 453
2023 - 830 298 532
2024 - 784 277 507
2025 - 751 257 494
2026 - 654 233 421
2027 - 513 173 340
2028 - 395 154 241
2029 - 326 138 188

Total NWA retirements - 3,762
Total DAL retirements - 4,469

So who has more retirements?

In the next ten years NWA plans to retire 1,068 pilots. Is that half the list?

In the next ten years Delta will retire 468 pilots, true that is half as many, but at year 12 Delta's retirements kick in and continue to exceed the NWA numbers.

15 years post merger:
DAL - 2248
NWA - 2530

But is that the end of the story? No.

How many pilots has Delta hired in 07 and how many are planning to come on board in 08? That number will be around 900 in 14 to 16 months of hiring. Most of these pilots went to widebodies. Which is more important - growth, or waiting for your Captain to expire?

 

[kwick]

Relative position should use the Delta seniority list from 5 years ago, to be fair and account for all the early-outs. Still a hard sell, don't think either company has furloughed pilots to muddy the waters, like in the AWA-USAir merger.

 

[nonstop]

Year- Total/NWA/DAL
2009 - 9 9 0
2010 - 8 8 0
2011 - 15 15 0
2012 - 15 15 0
2013 - 26 24 2
2014 - 220 161 59
2015 - 253 187 66
2016 - 288 203 85
2017 - 338 214 124
2018 - 382 232 150
2019 - 465 259 206
2020 - 547 293 254
2021 - 602 285 317
2022 - 780 327 453
2023 - 830 298 532
2024 - 784 277 507
2025 - 751 257 494
2026 - 654 233 421
2027 - 513 173 340
2028 - 395 154 241
2029 - 326 138 188

Total NWA retirements - 3,762
Total DAL retirements - 4,469

So who has more retirements?

NWA obviously, 3762/5200=71% vs DAL 4469/7200=62%. The percentage is even more tilted toward NWA if you look at the 10 year mark, especially considering most NWA guys are going to bail at 60 vs 65 at DAL.

 

[slinky]

Which is more important - growth, or waiting for your Captain to expire?

I like growth. But is there anything wrong in wishing the captains will expire. Or am I the only one who passes the time with blissful thoughts of untimely demise?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Funny

Well, most of the Captains at DAL are nice enough guys that you don't spend your time wishing them dead. The blue book at DAL is simply the aircraft log.
Yellow book is where they put MCO/MEL/CDL info.

 

[Schwanker]

How are you selling your seniority if you end up at the same relative place post merger that you had pre merger?

DAL's relative position: You will barely move on the DAL list without new growth over the next 13 years. If your 50% down the list, you may be at 45% in 2020.

NWA's relative position: You will move huge in the next 13 years. A guy 75% down the list will be much closer to (or in) the top 25% of the NWA list.

If you can't understand this, then you'll never get it.

 

[Gunfighter]

The retirements that would have benefitted newhire nw pilots will be diluted over thousands of delta pilots.

And the larger number of Delta retirements at the end of the NWA retirement wave gets diluted for the DAL pilots. It all depends on when you look at the list.

If the merger happens on a relative seniority basis today, then the NWA pilots get an immediate boost to their pay rate and the additional possibility of moving up in equipment if there are no fences.

Several years down the road, the DAL pilots move up because of NWA retirements, then several years later the NWA pilots move up because of DAL retirements.

There is a changing picture of who got the "better deal" over time. It all depends when you look at it.

 

[General Lee]

And the larger number of Delta retirements at the end of the NWA retirement wave gets diluted for the DAL pilots. It all depends on when you look at the list.

If the merger happens on a relative seniority basis today, then the NWA pilots get an immediate boost to their pay rate and the additional possibility of moving up in equipment if there are no fences.

Several years down the road, the DAL pilots move up because of NWA retirements, then several years later the NWA pilots move up because of DAL retirements.

There is a changing picture of who got the "better deal" over time. It all depends when you look at it.

IF we do merge and there are no fences, I will immediately bid MSP DC9 FO, and see if I can FINALLY see places I have always wanted to see. You ask? "Hey Lee, don't you go to Rio, Vienna, Copenhagen, etc?" I would say, "Wait, who are you again? Oh yeah, yes, I do see those places and enjoy them a lot, but I really want to see Minot, Sioux Falls, Winnepeg, and especially Fargo and Grand Forks. They sound wonderful....." That is what I call a "better deal." Do you still go to Saskatoon on the DC9, or did you give that to Compass? If so, DARN IT!!!!


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Occam's Razor]

IF we do merge and there are no fences, I will immediately bid MSP DC9 FO, and see if I can FINALLY see places I have always wanted to see. You ask? "Hey Lee, don't you go to Rio, Vienna, Copenhagen, etc?" I would say, "Wait, who are you again? Oh yeah, yes, I do see those places and enjoy them a lot, but I really want to see Minot, Sioux Falls, Winnepeg, and especially Fargo and Grand Forks. They sound wonderful....." That is what I call a "better deal." Do you still go to Saskatoon on the DC9, or did you give that to Compass? If so, DARN IT!!!!

The DC-9 requires a measure of airmanship. "Measure" in this case refers to something other than the number of one's posts on FI.

I recommend you choose small words when you get huffy about merger issues...they'll be easier to eat later.

 

[jke406]

why in the world would NWA pilots pass up on this windfall now (pay NOW, work rules NOW) for what they hope to achieve in a few more years with a new contract?

why would delta pilots agree to these modest pay increases when there's much more coming next year with a new contract?

the fact that delta pilots are considering this and northwest pilots are not is simply mind-boggling.

 

[General Lee]

The DC-9 requires a measure of airmanship. "Measure" in this case refers to something other than the number of one's posts on FI.

I recommend you choose small words when you get huffy about merger issues...they'll be easier to eat later.

Thanks Dad. Anyway, I think you have a major disconnect here---nothing I have said I will eat. And, If there are no fences, I will bid what I can hold, which could be a lot with your old azz DC9s. And, you seem to think flying the old stuff means you have airmanship. If you were a doctor, I bet you would like to do surgery on people without anesthesia too. Yeah, they can bite on a wood stick..... Enjoy your DC9s while they last. And, the FMS is a good thing, also called a "magic box." Do you also ask for NDB approaches when you fly those too? How about NDB holds? I thought so Orville. Good for you.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[filejw]

why in the world would NWA pilots pass up on this windfall now (pay NOW, work rules NOW) for what they hope to achieve in a few more years with a new contract?

why would delta pilots agree to these modest pay increases when there's much more coming next year with a new contract?

the fact that delta pilots are considering this and northwest pilots are not is simply mind-boggling.

Because pay and work rules have sea sawed back and forth over the last 30 years for both carriers so there is no reason to jump to an agreement for short term greed.

 

[General Lee]

Because pay and work rules have sea sawed back and forth over the last 30 years for both carriers so there is no reason to jump to an agreement for short term greed.

And at least you guys get to keep Steenland. He'll be open to whatever you want next time. So what? Your kids can wait to go to college for a few more years. Make them work at a Starbucks NOW, so they get a good work ethic as a "Barista" and you get a discount on your lattes at the airport. That is not short term GREED, that is short term GOOD.....


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[jke406]

Because pay and work rules have sea sawed back and forth over the last 30 years for both carriers so there is no reason to jump to an agreement for short term greed.

News flash: the only game for pilots in the airline industry is short term. The next 9/11 could be tomorrow. Take what you can get now and run.

Otherwise, prepare to get bent over during your next negotiations (in a few years).

Unless, of course, you think Steenland will play ball with you.

 

[Diesel-9]

Think its time to talk to CAL. Let the Manson Family get acquainted with the UAL and LCC seniority lists.

 

[General Lee]

Think its time to talk to CAL. Let the Manson Family get acquainted with the UAL and LCC seniority lists.

You think CAL will be easier than DL? They have hired 2000 in the past couple years, and a 4 or 5 year guy can hold 737 Capt in EWR. Yeah, they want to give that up to you geezers. I think you are spending way too much time in NRT with your gate agent girlfriend. And your man (forever now) Steenland says consolidation is inevitable. Great. Now you can meet a group with OLDER pilots---LCC. Dougwiser would love to merge with you guys. Have fun with that.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[ironspud]

Whew! That guy is bitter.

 

[Flopgut]

The DC-9 requires a measure of airmanship. "Measure" in this case refers to something other than the number of one's posts on FI.

Airmanship and a current tetanus shot.

 

[Flopgut]

Think its time to talk to CAL.

I'm just one CAL pilot, but I'd be happy to get a similiar DAL deal you just turned down! And I think we bring more to the equation than you guys.

Why don't you NWA guys go talk to AA?

 

[DTW320]

Airmanship and a current tetanus shot.

At least DC9 pilots don't have to worry about MALARIA as, apparently, DL 767 pilots do:

By MATT KEMPNER
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 02/28/08

After more than 22 years flying for Delta Air Lines, Bill Starnes knows exactly where he stands compared with his more than 7,000 colleagues: No. 236.


For airline pilots, where they sit on the seniority ladder determines whether they fly high or suck wind working every holiday, missing the biggest paydays, sitting on call and worrying about furloughs.


"It means everything," said Starnes, 53, who lives in Peachtree City and captains a 767 only on some of the sweetest routes: to Hawaii, Paris, Rome and other European destinations.


Delta's merger hopes with Northwest Airlines appear to depend in part on solving stalled talks between the separate pilot union locals for the two airlines. The pilot groups are supposed to be devising a plan for blending their seniority lists.


"Your whole life is tied to seniority," Starnes said. "That's why people become so defensive about it."
Seniority generally comes down to how many pilots there are and how many were hired after you. The system works like golden handcuffs between pilots and an airline. If pilots leave for another U.S. carrier, they face landing at the bottom of the pecking order with their new employer.


"Seniority is the key to pick your base [airport], your airplane, determine when you get vacation, pick your trips," Starnes said.


With enough seniority, first officers and captains get dibs on flying bigger planes and longer routes that set them up for higher pay.


Starnes figures that if he had a rank of No. 1,000 instead of 236th, he'd be making about 10 percent less money. He also could be bouncing around on domestic routes or taking less attractive international flights to destinations where he says he'd worry about security and malaria.

In his first year as captain of a 737, Starnes remembers what his low seniority ranking got him: flights away from home on birthdays, his anniversary and every holiday other than Halloween. Over his career, low seniority meant 10-hour layovers in Detroit with just enough time for sleep and 31 hours in a Buffalo hotel during a snowstorm.


But seniority also can determine whether pilots get to keep their jobs. And that's a particular concern to those who are most junior and therefore most vulnerable to the industry's volatility.


"First and foremost it means job protection," said Jeff Bendoski, a 40-year-old first officer for Delta who lives in Burlington, Vt.


After nearly nine years with Delta, he's only about a third of the way up the seniority list. That's better than where he was after
9/11, when Bendoski said he was about six slots away from being furloughed.
"I was hanging on by my fingernails," he said.
Compared to that, having dibs on choice vacation times and routes is "way on the back burner."


Bendoski is waiting to see what deal, if any, the Delta and Northwest pilot groups can work out.
"I'm concerned. Nobody wants to get shafted," he said.
But he reasons that grumbling over the final outcome might not be a bad sign: "You know the definition of a fair seniority list integration? Both sides are angry."

 

[Fly4hire]

I'm just one CAL pilot, but I'd be happy to get a similiar DAL deal you just turned down! And I think we bring more to the equation than you guys.

Why don't you NWA guys go talk to AA?

Think about it - not long ago NWALPA was being beat up badly for taking such an industry lagging contract in Ch11.

Now they are taking a hard line against DALPA's offer - with essentially the same MEC makeup (actually weaker IMO) as we had when we took that POS TA.

We know some of the contract details, yet little or none of the SLI proposals.

Either NWALPA just grew a set of really big ones overnight, or there is something that really, REALLY stinks in DALPA's SLI proposal.