No Teamsters at Flexjet!

[DirtyBeech]

Spent 10 bucks to double post eh?

 

[MOMOMOJO]

Apparently it's not Enough BS because you just added some more to the thread. Why are there only a few dominating the threads? It's been that way for years. A few talkers but many, many lurkers. I think you just want to shut down honest reflection and run away with your victory but you can't really do that and be fair.

The facts are 50 pilots made all the difference in the world. Firstly, it is just 318 who voted for you. You keep talking 321 but you can't because those 3 pilots still voted against management. Those 3 pilots still saw a need for protection.

By all calculations according to a poll taken earlier this year, there were approximately 190 pilots truly on the fence. They weren't strongly in either camp. They saw both choices as a decision between the "lesser of two evils".

If simply 49 pilots (or less than 10%) had chosen differently in the election we would be having a completely different discussion. So for half of the fraction you leave as a tip on a bar tab, it could have completely changed the outcome. That is not a strong win on your part so stop acting like it is and start doing something about addressing the issues at hand.

Let's talk about those 190. To be on the fence meant they were not opposed to unionization. But to be fair they were apparently opposed to this union.

OK why? Some were swayed by a completely inaccurate understanding of their personal outcome on SLI. By the discussions I've had this week with some I know we're in that group, 100% would have chosen the IBT if the were aware of the plan to reinstate longevity to the transfers. Ok your margin just shrank on that issue alone if not obliterated.

Next topic. MCBA. There were sections of both the fence sitters and strong pro company forces whose issue was all chalked up to the MCBA. A contract management fought hard for. A contract born out of issues with the arbritrator. A contract born out of our own lack of solidarity or unwillingness to be less than personally myopic. Looking back I personally think the vote was decided by the arbritrator back in October. I chose to educate myself of the details regarding the MCBA but I'll be the first one to admit had not, I'd have been anti union myself. So let's assume 50 people did the same or the arbitrator was more fair. That's a low number. I could have gone higher but 50 is all I need to show you there goes your lead again.

Leadership. I'll be the first one to admit this is one area where the IBT needs to be honest there was a definite disconnect between what they thought they were accomplishing and what the perception of what they were accomplishing was to the pilot group. I think it was multifaceted. For most original Flexjet guys they were just never ever going to respect or trust a leadership team comprised of Flight Options guys. There was just too much prejudice to overcome. Then within Flight Options RTA guys, there was always a 50/50 division in the group regarding leadership at any given time. Regarding the very few Flexjet guys who did step up, for one reason or another they were problematic. To be perfectly honest, Flexjet was, is and always will be a playground for narcissists and these guys, in general, never sat at the cool table Except for one or two, you just didn't have the charisma needed to carry the day. Additionally, the complete character assassination spearheaded by RH and his frat boys didn't help. That job wiped out the positive characteristics of them that didn't depend on charisma. So yes leadership was problematic. I don't say it to diminish them but just to point out it was a reason. Fixing the leadership issue or at least not suffering the attacks on it, would have easily garnered another 150 votes when all I needed was 50 to prove the point your lead wasn't as strong as you claim.

The 96000 plus pilots that are suffering as a result? Don't you dare pin it on those reasons though, leadership included. Pin it on guys like the decert crew who instead of stepping in to fix these problems fought hard to ruin the union knowing what was at stake. Pin it on 318 guys who thought only about themselves. I know it's uncomfortable to hear but those 96000 plus pilots aren't suffering because of people who tried and failed. They are suffering because of people who didn't try at all.

Anyway, it's a fine debate to have regarding the why. But don't fool yourself into thinking this was a landslide or a mandate. As just discussed above some very minute differences would have completely changed the outcome of the vote.

But the vote is what it is. I'd suggest everyone get on the wagon of their choosing. Leave now or get on board. I was a strong union supporter but now that there's no union, I'll do whatever I can to help this company and my colleagues go as far as we can.

Management has a won a battle. If they don't change their ways they will lose a war. You coming on here with your balls and bravado doesn't help that goal. Guys like squawk who have less than 1/2 an inch of integrity or morality to stand on don't help. False claims of harassment (come on you know it's bull****) don't help. A fairy tale view of your landslide doesn't help.

I've been very vocal my issues with this company have never been Kenn Ricci. If he really wanted to right this shop, IMHO he should start by fixing people like you. Your divisiveness will destroy what he needs to do to move forward.

 

[MOMOMOJO]

I was a MIGS and voted “no representation”. Hmmm.

All due respect, I wouldn't be proud of it let alone brag about it.

If that's really true it means you either didn't educate yourself or didn't step up to help fix what needed fixing. Not exactly something to be proud of.

 

[FracMonkey]

All due respect, I wouldn't be proud of it let alone brag about it.

If that's really true it means you either didn't educate yourself or didn't step up to help fix what needed fixing. Not exactly something to be proud of.

Some who understood what was going on either offered to help or pointed out places where the union was failing their members and were rebuffed and/or told that their criticisms and/or suggestions were unwelcome and/or unneeded. Not exactly something to be proud of either.

 

[MOMOMOJO]

Some who understood what was going on either offered to help or pointed out places where the union was failing their members and were rebuffed and/or told that their criticisms and/or suggestions were unwelcome and/or unneeded. Not exactly something to be proud of either.

I 100% agree. However my sincere question would be how much did you really try? Did you talk to one? Two? Every single member of leadership? I'll agree with you some were tough to get them to trust you but after guys like Phil Delis, Jim Lisi, Mike Reed, Patrick Whitt, Ken Sarmiento etc... playing double agents for the past few years I can see where they might have had trouble extending the graces of control over to one of the "other side."

I can tell you I've been very communicative with the Flex side of leadership. There response has always been grateful and came with the remark I was one of the few who even gave a rats ass let alone would ask questions and offer dialogue. The fact is many many Flexjet pilots expected it to be done for them, without any personal effort and be done their way while all the while criticizing and degrading the FLOPS portion of leadership.

A few months ago when I called to ask if there was anything I could do to help with the effort after the decert was filed they said "hey we could really use some help with these message boards." I know there's a couple of others who were asked to come out of an observers role and post. But you were strangely quiet the whole time. Dirty Squirrel was toting the decert line. Logic tells me that's evidence you weren't in touch with at least the Flexjet side of things otherwise they would have tapped you too.

Listen this whole thing has been a complete circle jerk. No one won here, least of all the pilots. We need to figure out a way to move past it and on to better things either individually or as a group.

A large part of moving on will have to be accepting the fact there is no one more to blame than a pilot who did nothing, on either side, decert or pro union, but wants to gloat or bitch about the outcome. Saying you tried but were rebuffed is just a lousy excuse to help you sleep at night and you know it. The fact is 99% were lazy about this thing and we'll have to deal with those consequences.

 

[Enough BS]

“If he really wanted to right this shop, IMHO he should start by fixing people like you. Your divisiveness will destroy what he needs to do to move forward.”

Fixing people like me? Why because we see things different? Man your going to need to fix a whole lot of people. Don’t you see this is some of the mentality that lost your union.
Maybe you lost your position as a union leader or you just worked hard for you cause. Your frustration is understandable. Like it or not people think differently and the IBT’s way of dealing with that got them the ax.

All the numbers you posted are irreverent because the IBT is out by a margin exponentially larger than what put them in power. The working conditions became much worse with IBT inability to deal with the company and their own members. Clearly the majority of people who work here didn’t see the benefits of continuing in this manner.

Earlier today I mentioned there’s only about a half a dozen people, a vocal minority dominating the fractional message boards. That doesn’t mean I’m not aware that dozens more look at them regularly. I felt a balancing opinion was long overdue.

The techniques used by your side failed and did not carry the day. My message is simple, people have different opinions.

 

[MOMOMOJO]

Out of that giganticly long post I took the time to craft to point out the error of your bravado all you can find argument with is the comment about fixing your desire to remain divisive and thump your chest like you're the big winner when reality proves otherwise?

No one won here. Even at 318 - 220 with no fence sitters this is a deeply divided pilot group.

We either all get on board or we leave. It's as simple as that. I would suggest if you can't get on board with realizing there is a lot of work to do to get back to a point where we can all work together you should be one of the ones to leave. Just the fact that you thought to make the screen name "Enough BS" with the the sole intention of disenfranchising over half your pilot group (as proven in my other post) is proof you are bigger part of the problem than any Union ever could be.

 

[squawk]

His crystal ball works because of the simple axiom that states that those who fail to learn from the past are doomed to repeat it. Ricci is 3 for 3 in having a union formed after being given a chance to run things his way. I’m not sure he’ll be 4 for 4, because the 1108 is your only option when you choose to organize again, and they may or may not tell you to pound sand.

As may the Airlines when the exodus continues. And it will. You just did something unprecedented. Something every airline union told you not to do. Speaking of arrogance.

The union, read you, wasn’t going to build solidarity. The 318 who just f’d themselves were always going to vote NO. Much like “squawk” ,who suddenly decided to play dumb on the subject, they never paid a dime in dues despite being forgiven back payment, never opened a union email, never participated in the process and never contacted their reps to get involved. They sat on their a$$es and expected it to just be handed to them, and then decerted when the arbitrator, who specifically mentioned the lack of unity in his rulings, gave them the barest contract that he could. A contract that the company fought tooth and nail against. Not that a single decerter could speak intelligently about a single proposal company or union.

No, Ken just had to wait for 20% of the group to leave while promising his true believers and returned furloughees/ transfers a bag of silver. 318 votes out of an original 700 person pilot group is 45%. Do you recall what the original organizing vote numbers were? Look familiar?

And, as predicted, 2NN started his fu**ery within 30 minutes of the vote. A ton of people just took it in the shorts on the seniority list that Kenn has made apparent he doesn’t honor anyway (hilariously the small group who lost the most with the ISL and were pissed about it just lost a ton more), individual employment agreements were reinstated which once again “aren’t worth the paper they’re printed on” unless you violate one, and those FO pay rates were raised to something completely uncompetitive with even the lowest paid ULCC’s.

A ton more people are about to leave FJ and you don’t have a prayer of recruiting anywhere near enough to replace them. In short, FJ will wither on the vine. Maybe 2NN is content to leave 1/4 of his planes uncrewed while chartering out the rest of his flying. He’ll be paying himself either way. Probably he’ll fold shop, sell off the remainder and use a different certificate to start again and maybe drag his FOK’s with him. But you’re done. Even if he FJ matched airline compensation you would be uncompetitive in schedule, quality of life, and workload with the majors. Done. Good luck with that.

I got out my crystal ball (actually a Magic 8 Ball) and polished it up as clear as I could and it predicts this post will not age well.

 

[Enough BS]

Yes you had a long post, we can agree on that. Not sure what you proved with your numbers. My suggestion is leave the spin to the political experts, your not good at it. The fact is the numbers show the support for the union was never good and considerably less now. That’s not chest thumping or bravado.

Go back two years ago look at the posts on this and the VUH for examples of chest thumping and bravado. It was the IBT’s bravado that disenfranchised over half the pilots! The numbers prove it.

People like me have worked here a long time just like you. We’re not going anywhere! A couple of you said we’re going to get what we asked for. Fine go pick up your withdrawal card and seek what you have coming, elsewhere. (See we can all play this game).

Really I have no need to try and torque your nuts. It’s time for me to get over the last few years of the IBT’s abuse. It’s time for you to get over that they are gone. We all have the common need to get over it and move on.

 

[DirtyBeech]

I got out my crystal ball (actually a Magic 8 Ball) and polished it up as clear as I could and it predicts this post will not age well.

Bet it ages a ton better than your flipping off half the pilot group.

 

[MOMOMOJO]

BS I went through component after component of the issues that prove support for the union wasn't as negative as you say. I agree wholeheartedly it was lackluster however the point is the number 318 doesn't exactly express what's going on here in the context you assert it does. Instead of providing ounterpoint or some thoughts of your own you just continue to chest thump and say it's not that way because I say it's not that way.

My whole point, and you just keep proving it more and more with every post, is that this pilot group is a lot more fractured than you seem to think it is. This company will fester and squander unless that issue is fixed.

The vote was really not 318 to 220. It was probably 100-100 with everyone else somewhere in between. I've got a family to support and so do you. If our plan is to stay at flexjet then we need to stop this b******* and do everything we can to heal this company. If we can't do that then we need to leave. I know we are short pilots but I truly hope management sees the bigger picture here and allows for a graceful exit to those who need to go. I also hope for those who want to stay they extend the olive branch and realize we can do more together than apart.

You seem hell-bent on not fixing the divide. That's all I'm pointing out. A sore losers one thing BS but a sore winner? Wow that's just in a whole nother category.

I'll be honest. I'm probably gone. I know about a hundred other guys who are probably gone too. But maybe management will surprise us and come up with a plan where that doesn't seem like our only option.

However I assure you if we keep up with this banter here on flight info and on the road, there will be no company for either of us in a few years.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

We have the current infighting here because of the culture festered by OneSky. The lack of progress in negotiations may be to blame on both parties, but now, without Teamster interference, the company will have the chance to show us how much they value us as professionals.

 

[squawk]

BS I went through component after component of the issues that prove support for the union wasn't as negative as you say. I agree wholeheartedly it was lackluster however the point is the number 318 doesn't exactly express what's going on here in the context you assert it does. Instead of providing ounterpoint or some thoughts of your own you just continue to chest thump and say it's not that way because I say it's not that way.

My whole point, and you just keep proving it more and more with every post, is that this pilot group is a lot more fractured than you seem to think it is. This company will fester and squander unless that issue is fixed.

The vote was really not 318 to 220. It was probably 100-100 with everyone else somewhere in between. I've got a family to support and so do you. If our plan is to stay at flexjet then we need to stop this b******* and do everything we can to heal this company. If we can't do that then we need to leave. I know we are short pilots but I truly hope management sees the bigger picture here and allows for a graceful exit to those who need to go. I also hope for those who want to stay they extend the olive branch and realize we can do more together than apart.

You seem hell-bent on not fixing the divide. That's all I'm pointing out. A sore losers one thing BS but a sore winner? Wow that's just in a whole nother category.

I'll be honest. I'm probably gone. I know about a hundred other guys who are probably gone too. But maybe management will surprise us and come up with a plan where that doesn't seem like our only option.

However I assure you if we keep up with this banter here on flight info and on the road, there will be no company for either of us in a few years.

excuse me for sticking my nose in a thing between you and BS, but my crystal ball says there will be 1000 pilots here by the end of 2020.

Furthermore, the sore “whatever” has not been more acute than the union supporters here that insist we are all going to some pilot perdition and ruinous career track for exercising our worker rights completely in compliance with all labor laws.

Pilots in this country have never enjoyed so many opportunities and so much market force leverage than right now. It’s our market, and our fleets are selling to people that could not afford this under the stinking cloud of Obama. We are quite a commodity, both private jets and the pilots who fly them.

Not a a bad time to be a free agent.

 

[Enough BS]

However I assure you if we keep up with this banter here on flight info and on the road, there will be no company for either of us in a few years.

Well done sir! Honestly. I was hoping at least one of you would come to that conclusion today. Good luck in whatever you do.

 

[justmeinmsp]

A 1000 pilots at Flex by the end of 2020, yeah right. We’ll be watching to see how this fine leadership team does