No Teamsters at Flexjet!

[MOMOMOJO]

BS I went through component after component of the issues that prove support for the union wasn't as negative as you say. I agree wholeheartedly it was lackluster however the point is the number 318 doesn't exactly express what's going on here in the context you assert it does. Instead of providing ounterpoint or some thoughts of your own you just continue to chest thump and say it's not that way because I say it's not that way.

My whole point, and you just keep proving it more and more with every post, is that this pilot group is a lot more fractured than you seem to think it is. This company will fester and squander unless that issue is fixed.

The vote was really not 318 to 220. It was probably 100-100 with everyone else somewhere in between. I've got a family to support and so do you. If our plan is to stay at flexjet then we need to stop this b******* and do everything we can to heal this company. If we can't do that then we need to leave. I know we are short pilots but I truly hope management sees the bigger picture here and allows for a graceful exit to those who need to go. I also hope for those who want to stay they extend the olive branch and realize we can do more together than apart.

You seem hell-bent on not fixing the divide. That's all I'm pointing out. A sore losers one thing BS but a sore winner? Wow that's just in a whole nother category.

I'll be honest. I'm probably gone. I know about a hundred other guys who are probably gone too. But maybe management will surprise us and come up with a plan where that doesn't seem like our only option.

However I assure you if we keep up with this banter here on flight info and on the road, there will be no company for either of us in a few years.

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

We have the current infighting here because of the culture festered by OneSky. The lack of progress in negotiations may be to blame on both parties, but now, without Teamster interference, the company will have the chance to show us how much they value us as professionals.

 

[squawk]

BS I went through component after component of the issues that prove support for the union wasn't as negative as you say. I agree wholeheartedly it was lackluster however the point is the number 318 doesn't exactly express what's going on here in the context you assert it does. Instead of providing ounterpoint or some thoughts of your own you just continue to chest thump and say it's not that way because I say it's not that way.

My whole point, and you just keep proving it more and more with every post, is that this pilot group is a lot more fractured than you seem to think it is. This company will fester and squander unless that issue is fixed.

The vote was really not 318 to 220. It was probably 100-100 with everyone else somewhere in between. I've got a family to support and so do you. If our plan is to stay at flexjet then we need to stop this b******* and do everything we can to heal this company. If we can't do that then we need to leave. I know we are short pilots but I truly hope management sees the bigger picture here and allows for a graceful exit to those who need to go. I also hope for those who want to stay they extend the olive branch and realize we can do more together than apart.

You seem hell-bent on not fixing the divide. That's all I'm pointing out. A sore losers one thing BS but a sore winner? Wow that's just in a whole nother category.

I'll be honest. I'm probably gone. I know about a hundred other guys who are probably gone too. But maybe management will surprise us and come up with a plan where that doesn't seem like our only option.

However I assure you if we keep up with this banter here on flight info and on the road, there will be no company for either of us in a few years.

excuse me for sticking my nose in a thing between you and BS, but my crystal ball says there will be 1000 pilots here by the end of 2020.

Furthermore, the sore “whatever” has not been more acute than the union supporters here that insist we are all going to some pilot perdition and ruinous career track for exercising our worker rights completely in compliance with all labor laws.

Pilots in this country have never enjoyed so many opportunities and so much market force leverage than right now. It’s our market, and our fleets are selling to people that could not afford this under the stinking cloud of Obama. We are quite a commodity, both private jets and the pilots who fly them.

Not a a bad time to be a free agent.

 

[Enough BS]

However I assure you if we keep up with this banter here on flight info and on the road, there will be no company for either of us in a few years.

Well done sir! Honestly. I was hoping at least one of you would come to that conclusion today. Good luck in whatever you do.

 

[justmeinmsp]

A 1000 pilots at Flex by the end of 2020, yeah right. We’ll be watching to see how this fine leadership team does

 

[TheBigMan]

excuse me for sticking my nose in a thing between you and BS, but my crystal ball says there will be 1000 pilots here by the end of 2020. QUOTE]

1000 pilots by 2020?
Set the crack pipe down and step away from the computer!

 

[DirtyBeech]

Yeah. That’s 25 pilots or so a month before the mass exodus continues. Maybe if Ken buys Wheels Off and XOJet before those pilot groups leave in droves.

Also rough numbers, but that $12M in silver he was holding out for you would be an extra $22k if divided evenly amongst the pilot group. Which is still substandard to airline pay, and that’s before you throw in the 8/7, terrible retirement, “flexible” scheduling, shoddy mx and no seniority. Yeah. I can see pilots just flocking to that banner.

I’d bet that the pilot group will be a lot closer to 400 pilots than 1000 in 18 months.

 

[Dirty Squirrel]

All due respect, I wouldn't be proud of it let alone brag about it.

If that's really true it means you either didn't educate yourself or didn't step up to help fix what needed fixing. Not exactly something to be proud of.

This certainly wasn’t a brag or chest thump. I wanted to make a point that I believed, in the end, that we would be better off without The 1108. I do believe in the power of market forces. 1108’s solidarity sucked. If OnySky management plays their cards right, we will have solidarity among ourselves and a mutually beneficial relationship with management. This is the only way this company will grow.

I read every email and text that was sent by the 1108. I constantly read this forum and the VUH and spoke with union supporters on the road. My head was never in the sand. I just didn’t buy it.

Bantering and mocking aside, I look forward to having constructive conversations with other pilots, regardless of how they see things. We all will benefit from this. You all want solidarity? It can start now.

Cheers.

 

[FracMonkey]

I 100% agree. However my sincere question would be how much did you really try? Did you talk to one? Two? Every single member of leadership? I'll agree with you some were tough to get them to trust you but after guys like Phil Delis, Jim Lisi, Mike Reed, Patrick Whitt, Ken Sarmiento etc... playing double agents for the past few years I can see where they might have had trouble extending the graces of control over to one of the "other side."

I can tell you I've been very communicative with the Flex side of leadership. There response has always been grateful and came with the remark I was one of the few who even gave a rats ass let alone would ask questions and offer dialogue. The fact is many many Flexjet pilots expected it to be done for them, without any personal effort and be done their way while all the while criticizing and degrading the FLOPS portion of leadership.

A few months ago when I called to ask if there was anything I could do to help with the effort after the decert was filed they said "hey we could really use some help with these message boards." I know there's a couple of others who were asked to come out of an observers role and post. But you were strangely quiet the whole time. Dirty Squirrel was toting the decert line. Logic tells me that's evidence you weren't in touch with at least the Flexjet side of things otherwise they would have tapped you too.

Listen this whole thing has been a complete circle jerk. No one won here, least of all the pilots. We need to figure out a way to move past it and on to better things either individually or as a group.

A large part of moving on will have to be accepting the fact there is no one more to blame than a pilot who did nothing, on either side, decert or pro union, but wants to gloat or bitch about the outcome. Saying you tried but were rebuffed is just a lousy excuse to help you sleep at night and you know it. The fact is 99% were lazy about this thing and we'll have to deal with those consequences.

Wow. You were so close. I read your post and agreed right up to the point where that little drop of venom dripped out of your mouth. I'm not sure why a seemingly conciliatory post had to devolve into a you taking a shot at me, but that's ok. I've taken more slings and arrows in this saga than you can possibly imagine and your sophomoric attempt barely registers by comparison. Keep in mind you know less than 20% of the story. You were part of an organized group for two years. The Options side of the house was organized for over a decade.

You know nothing of the years I spent volunteering for the union and you know nothing of the thanks I received in the form of knives that ended up stuck in my back because I had the temerity to disagree with the union and the b*lls to say so publicly.

Disagreement and criticism was considered a threat to solidarity and the response of the union faithful was to ridicule, demean and shout down dissent to the point where the VUH and the union itself became an echo chamber. Rather than listening to their membership and attempting to solve issues or try new ideas, they squashed dissent in the name of solidarity. In doing so they destroyed the very solidarity they were seeking.

You ask how many times I tried. The answer is that it's irrelevant. How many times does one go back to an organization that absolutely believes that they have all the answers and outside input, even from someone who was once on the inside, isn't welcome because it doesn't follow the party line? At some point one has to decide to quit proving the textbook definition of insanity to themselves.

I don't need to make excuses to sleep well at night, sleep comes easily and peacefully. The sad thing is that the union faithful who engaged in the squashing of dissent in the name of solidarity feel the same way.

That my friend, is why the 1108 failed.

 

[Dooker]

My crystal ball says recession in Q4 of 2019 or early 2020. And you know how well the fractional industry weathered the last recession. Add to that the fact that the economics of the frac model don't really make sense anymore. AND the fact that the frac industry has been shrinking overall in terms of total airframes since 2008. AND the fact that managed charter has taken a huge bite out of your market share.

I say your list will be about 80% of what it is now come 2020.

But, hey, I'm an optimist.

 

[FracMonkey]

This certainly wasn’t a brag or chest thump. I wanted to make a point that I believed, in the end, that we would be better off without The 1108. I do believe in the power of market forces. 1108’s solidarity sucked. If OnySky management plays their cards right, we will have solidarity among ourselves and a mutually beneficial relationship with management. This is the only way this company will grow.

I read every email and text that was sent by the 1108. I constantly read this forum and the VUH and spoke with union supporters on the road. My head was never in the sand. I just didn’t buy it.

Bantering and mocking aside, I look forward to having constructive conversations with other pilots, regardless of how they see things. We all will benefit from this. You all want solidarity? It can start now.

Cheers.

Bravo! You exemplify the new attitude that we all need to display to move forward. IMO we all have a decision to make, either get on the train or get run over by it. I don't drink on the road, but if we ever meet your first beverage is on me.:beer:

 

[MOMOMOJO]

Wow. You were so close. I read your post and agreed right up to the point where that little drop of venom dripped out of your mouth. I'm not sure why a seemingly conciliatory post had to devolve into a you taking a shot at me, but that's ok. I've taken more slings and arrows in this saga than you can possibly imagine and your sophomoric attempt barely registers by comparison. Keep in mind you know less than 20% of the story. You were part of an organized group for two years. The Options side of the house was organized for over a decade.

You know nothing of the years I spent volunteering for the union and you know nothing of the thanks I received in the form of knives that ended up stuck in my back because I had the temerity to disagree with the union and the b*lls to say so publicly.

Disagreement and criticism was considered a threat to solidarity and the response of the union faithful was to ridicule, demean and shout down dissent to the point where the VUH and the union itself became an echo chamber. Rather than listening to their membership and attempting to solve issues or try new ideas, they squashed dissent in the name of solidarity. In doing so they destroyed the very solidarity they were seeking.

You ask how many times I tried. The answer is that it's irrelevant. How many times does one go back to an organization that absolutely believes that they have all the answers and outside input, even from someone who was once on the inside, isn't welcome because it doesn't follow the party line? At some point one has to decide to quit proving the textbook definition of insanity to themselves.

I don't need to make excuses to sleep well at night, sleep comes easily and peacefully. The sad thing is that the union faithful who engaged in the squashing of dissent in the name of solidarity feel the same way.

That my friend, is why the 1108 failed.

No was not venom was not directed at you personally. It wasn't even venom. It wasn't even directed at "everyone but me", it includes me.

The fact is we are a lazy group of pilots when it comes to this solidarity thing. We are also generally a narcissistic and selfish pilot group and none other than our dear leader RH and the rest of the **** You Crew exemplify it. My point is we can all feel however we want but unless we actually take action nothing will change. I'm not feeling defensive and was not intending to put you into that corner either. My point is 99% of our group (and if you say you're not in this group I'll take your word) never really pursued how we could help each other. Even the decert crew was each individually in it for themselves.

My point in asking you how many times you tried is because I know I personally got more inclusion from some leaders versus others but I concede to your point that mere fact is a huge red flag of arrogance.

Are you original RTA? The thing no one wants to realize in this fight is we really had 3 factions in the mix. It makes a huge difference to understanding why solidarity failed and why Kenn Ricci is a freaking genius for knowing how to play each off of each other. No disrespect in that. The more I think about it the more I realize he is crazy good at what he does. The claims he bought Flexjet for the mere purpose of ridding himself of the union sheeringa brought to his doorstep ring more true with every bit of knowledge.

I'll be completely transparent. If I had understood early on what a master he was I myself might have tried to jump on the fok train. Still taking care of my fellow man is more consequential to me than a paycheck so in the end I'm happy with my choice.

 

[Dirty Squirrel]

My crystal ball says recession in Q4 of 2019 or early 2020. And you know how well the fractional industry weathered the last recession. Add to that the fact that the economics of the frac model don't really make sense anymore. AND the fact that the frac industry has been shrinking overall in terms of total airframes since 2008. AND the fact that managed charter has taken a huge bite out of your market share.

I say your list will be about 80% of what it is now come 2020.

But, hey, I'm an optimist.

Here is an area where we can be optimistic. Without union/company drama and with marketing focus on supplemental ride, corporate consolidation, owner retention, competitive steals and retaking some clients who went to chartered / managed aircraft, we have huge potential as a non-union shop. We aren’t the major airlines, Netjets or Travel Management. Again, the company must play this right.

Any junior pilot is vunerable during a recession. Including those who jumped ship to and airline.

 

[squawk]

No was not venom was not directed at you personally. It wasn't even venom. It wasn't even directed at "everyone but me", it includes me.

The fact is we are a lazy group of pilots when it comes to this solidarity thing. We are also generally a narcissistic and selfish pilot group and none other than our dear leader RH and the rest of the **** You Crew exemplify it. My point is we can all feel however we want but unless we actually take action nothing will change. I'm not feeling defensive and was not intending to put you into that corner either. My point is 99% of our group (and if you say you're not in this group I'll take your word) never really pursued how we could help each other. Even the decert crew was each individually in it for themselves.

My point in asking you how many times you tried is because I know I personally got more inclusion from some leaders versus others but I concede to your point that mere fact is a huge red flag of arrogance.

Are you original RTA? The thing no one wants to realize in this fight is we really had 3 factions in the mix. It makes a huge difference to understanding why solidarity failed and why Kenn Ricci is a freaking genius for knowing how to play each off of each other. No disrespect in that. The more I think about it the more I realize he is crazy good at what he does. The claims he bought Flexjet for the mere purpose of ridding himself of the union sheeringa brought to his doorstep ring more true with every bit of knowledge.

I'll be completely transparent. If I had understood early on what a master he was I myself might have tried to jump on the fok train. Still taking care of my fellow man is more consequential to me than a paycheck so in the end I'm happy with my choice.

Karl Marx moldy ears just perked up at this remark. How noble can you be without that paycheck you so flippantly disregard? Will your “ fellow men” divide their paycheck for you if you ever go without? Do you work for your fellow man or your company? Does your fellow man sign your check? Did your fellow men hire you? What is your job here? Who do you work for?

 

[GlorifiedCabbie]

Here is an area where we can be optimistic. Without union/company drama and with marketing focus on supplemental ride, corporate consolidation, owner retention, competitive steals and retaking some clients who went to chartered / managed aircraft, we have huge potential as a non-union shop. We aren’t the major airlines, Netjets or Travel Management. Again, the company must play this right.

Any junior pilot is vunerable during a recession. Including those who jumped ship to and airline.

Without pilots, Kenn can't deliver with or without a Union but I hope I'm wrong. As for a junior pilot being vulnerable during a recession, Kenn says he wants layoffs not in reverse seniority order, so even a senior pilot is now vulnerable.

 

[GE6108A]

You guys are hitching your wagon to a train that has consistently failed at its mission of growth. FO at its peak was near 1300 pilots. Ricci comes back and you are what now, 570? He kills companies, he doesn’t grow them. He will never succeed because he constantly and without fail derides the competition- NetJets. Rich people aren’t generally stupid. One only need tour the hangar in CGF then the hangar in CMH to know Ricci runs a shoddy operation. You can eat off the floors in the NetJets hangar- not so at Ricci’s sh$t bag operation. If in fact your sorry a$$es actually gain market share in the short term- you will lose it in the next down turn.

 

[Imissmypilot]

Karl Marx moldy ears just perked up at this remark. How noble can you be without that paycheck you so flippantly disregard? Will your “ fellow men” divide their paycheck for you if you ever go without? Do you work for your fellow man or your company? Does your fellow man sign your check? Did your fellow men hire you? What is your job here? Who do you work for?

No squawk I think what he's saying is something that resonates with a lot of us. He was happy to be pulling in a good paycheck without having to crawl on the backs of others for more.

For most of the Union supporters at Flex the issue was never money. It was work rules and quality-of-life issues. The only ones who cared about money where the decerters and they were willing to do anything for just a little bit more

At the end of the day we'll see who the jokes really on.

BTW what happened to your immediate pay raises on day one? Better watch yourself because technically in Riccis book he gave it. For your sake I hope it doesn't stop there but I have a feeling it will. He's going to have to lay out some serious cash for new hires. There will be no more for you.

 

[Enough BS]

You guys are hitching your wagon to a train that has consistently failed at its mission of growth. FO at its peak was near 1300 pilots. Ricci comes back and you are what now, 570? He kills companies, he doesn’t grow them. He will never succeed because he constantly and without fail derides the competition- NetJets. Rich people aren’t generally stupid. One only need tour the hangar in CGF then the hangar in CMH to know Ricci runs a shoddy operation. You can eat off the floors in the NetJets hangar- not so at Ricci’s sh$t bag operation. If in fact your sorry a$$es actually gain market share in the short term- you will lose it in the next down turn.

Oh boy that’s convincing. Obviously some sort of industry business analyst.

 

[Bjtdrvr]

FO/TA never actually cracked the 1000 mark. Something like 979 or there about. And Kenn actually was only involved for about a year after that merger then was basically kicked out by Raytheon.

 

[FracMonkey]

You guys are hitching your wagon to a train that has consistently failed at its mission of growth. FO at its peak was near 1300 pilots. Ricci comes back and you are what now, 570? He kills companies, he doesn’t grow them. He will never succeed because he constantly and without fail derides the competition- NetJets. Rich people aren’t generally stupid. One only need tour the hangar in CGF then the hangar in CMH to know Ricci runs a shoddy operation. You can eat off the floors in the NetJets hangar- not so at Ricci’s sh$t bag operation. If in fact your sorry a$$es actually gain market share in the short term- you will lose it in the next down turn.

Here we go again with your crystal ball.....sigh.

Perhaps you forget that NN was shown the door by Raytheon when they brought in Nahill and you obviously don't remember that HIG gave Schreenga the mandate to wind down the operation and sell off what he could. Of course the company was on a downward trajectory. The assets are what HIG wanted, not the income stream. After NN was shown the door, growth wasn't part of the plan.

You point out the condition of hangar floors, really?! If OneSky had the shiniest hangar floors in the industry, you'd b*tch about the money being spent on that and not being given to the pilot group. I personally don't give a rip what the hangar floors look like as long as there's not safety issues in the hangars. They're glorified garages. Who cares what the floor looks like?

Everyone will lose in the next downturn. That's how recessions work. I've already lost this job once and not only did I survive, I thrived. Anyone, including NN, who thinks they hold some kind of power over me due to a fear of losing my job doesn't understand the mindset of a true survivor. That's one part of what changed my mind about the union. My furlough was the beginning of my independence. Once one has had to truly fight for themselves, they don't need to rely on a collective to fight for them. I learned that I have the skillsets necessary to succeed no matter what this industry throws at me. I also learned to take advantage of opportunities. Opportunity abounds at OneSky for one who learns to play the game and I intend to do just that. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

You sound like a very angry individual. Sour grapes make bitter wine, my friend.