No Short Cuts

Benzene

Got Flight Job?
Joined
Jan 1, 2002
Posts
49
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n+1
I would not trust anyone with my grandma below 2K hours.
You learn as you fly. There is no short cut! Why do you think that the military has so many incidents even with all the training they do. There is no substitute for experience and that comes from hours. That is why a Regional will only hire a low timers to assist with the manipulation of gear and flaps.
 

Parethd70

Active member
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May 19, 2002
Posts
41
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7000
And you are somehow over this hump with your astounding 2400 hours?
 

KingAirKiddo

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Jan 8, 2002
Posts
465
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7500
Okay, I'll bite...

It is my humble opinion that this thread was created only to start a flame war, but I'm feeling sparky today so what the heck.

While I'd agree that nothing replaces experience when it comes to progressing in an aviation career, I don't agree that hours alone are a good indicator of the quality of this experience. Does a pilot who has built 2000 hours putzing around in his father's Cherokee on severe clear days have the same experience level as a 1600 hour freight dog who has been flying through all types of weather day and night? I'd say no, absolutely not. Clearly the guy who is being paid to transport goods or people from point A to B in the most marginal conditions is the one with the best experience. He/she has had to exercise judgement, hone their instrument skills, and remain self-disciplined in order to be successful in the job and remain safe. Similar comparisons can be made regarding the logging of time in pursuit of a better position. I'd be much more at ease flying with the guy who has 200 hours single pilot in a Baron or Navajo than flying with the guy who has 300 multi, including 250 as "Part 135 SIC" in a light twin or turboprop. Although the CRM experience is valuable in the second case, I feel that it needs to be supplemented by he experience of "being in the hot seat" as in the first example. A mixture of both quality single pilot and crew time is most valuable in attaining the proper experience toward the next big step.

Regarding the comment about regionals hiring low time pilots to play with the gear and flaps, or something to that effect...this is not what happens in the Part 121 structured environment. Every other leg is flown by the first officer in a practice known as "leg swapping". Typically the Captain flies the first leg of the trip segment to set the tone and his or her expectations for the trip, and then the legs are swapped with the non-flying pilot performing duties such as radio calls, running checklists, etc. The era of the Captain flying all the time while the other pilot(s) looked on is bygone (thankfully). If you absolutely feel that the first officer is meant only to operate gear and flaps, then I'd suggest staying in a single pilot enviroment for the remainder of your career so you don't make the rest of us miserable. It is evident that you have a huge chip on your shoulder for whatever reason, and I hope that someday you will see the light that quality of experience is a different concept than total time.

Okay, fire away... :eek:

KingAirKiddo
 
Last edited:

MartinFierro

Flyin' Gaucho
Joined
Jan 7, 2002
Posts
89
Total Time
is now
It's just too bad for Benzene that 2,000+ hours won't make a person more intelligent or less bitter.
 

gump88

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 28, 2001
Posts
170
Total Time
10000+
Benzene said:
I would not trust anyone with my grandma below 2K hours.
You learn as you fly. There is no short cut! Why do you think that the military has so many incidents even with all the training they do. There is no substitute for experience and that comes from hours. That is why a Regional will only hire a low timers to assist with the manipulation of gear and flaps.
I agree with most of your post except the part about the Regionals. When I flew for the regionals, 13 years total, the FO always got to fly every other leg UNLESS they proved themselves unsafe and/or out of my "comfort zone" with their skills. Although some of you will disagree, the Captain is not a Flight Instructor. At least not for basic airmanship!

gump
 

TWA69

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Jan 26, 2002
Posts
61
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6000
A little food for thought,


Did you know that most, if not all of the major airlines have at one point, certainly not rescently, hired no time pilots who are flying as captains today getting ready to retire. Tell that to your grandma!
 

MooseTrax

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Jun 22, 2002
Posts
171
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5000
I gotta add my two cents from the military aspect since your comments have no military experience backing them. I assure you that the accident incident rates in the military are minimal due to lack of experience. The incidents occurr more because of the higher risk involved in the type of flying. We don't just takeoff and worry about landing somewhere. We have air refueling in between, putting bombs on targets, ingressing hostile environments and airdropping supplies in sometimes large formations, and our Navy brothers landing and taking off on a ship. We take the takeoff and landing seriously, but it looks like thats all you've done in your 2400 hours. Call me when you've done a carrier landing or commanded a formation of high performance jets and been able to air refuel for the average 20 to 30 minutes in a heavy jet, just 12 feet behind another heavy jet do 400 knots across the ground. The military has an overall low experience level compared to the big airlines/cargo companies, but we are the best trained in the world at what we do, and yes, it takes risk to defend our country and help those in need during humanitarian airlift and peace-keeping efforts abroad.
 

flyingdog

Active member
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Posts
40
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enough
Dear MooseTrax;
Allow me to say that you are right. You had the chance to chose your career when you finished High School. Your pick was the military side. That way you have had the opportunity to use taxpayer's money for your license, your daily needs, your retirement benefits, medical benefits. On the same token many other pilots couldn't or didn't want to chose that path. So they ended up paying for their worthless licenses, they struggled for their daily's needs, they built their time hours by hour, minute by minute with little benefits/money. It is their fault. They should have picked your way. But somebody has to pay taxes for you to get a license. If we all join who in the world would pay those taxes. Bottom line there allways were pros and cons regarding those hot pilot's jobs.......with military/civilian background. The best solution should be that to create more jobs than pilots. At that point we will stop fighting over this issue (we will find other issues to fight for, but that is another matter).
 

Junioriuie

"Junior" Member
Joined
Jun 22, 2002
Posts
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16
Anybody else but me sick of reading these posts arguing Time: Quality vs. Quantity?

I'm one of the low-timers you guys are talking about. I graduated from one of the Universities and got right into a regional. After getting my Comm, Inst, and MEL I was thrown right into B727 systems and sim(learning from an instructor for a Major), as well as King Air systems and flight. And guess what.... they actually allowed us 300 hour pilots to fly the King Air, and guess what else we also got to fly it in weather(down to mins several times) and into the "northeast corridor". I mean good God, its a wonder we survived without the superior skills of you 2400 hour pilots :eek:. I'm suprised they even let us make the coffee for trip. I'm sure that flying that run down 152 the flying club had would have prepared me for the airlines just as well ;)

Look this argument could go on for days, months, hell, even years and its not gonna get anywhere. Every pilot is different, there's good low-timer's just like there's bad high-timer's. But its sure nice to see this kind of attitude and behavior from such seasoned "professionals"(and for a couple of people on this board, I use this term very loosely), I'll remember your example when I have a low-timer looking to me for guidance. Gee I can't wait until I break 2000 hours, it'll be an honor to be able to fly your grandma. The thought alone makes me all warm and tingly all over:D
 

Junioriuie

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Jun 22, 2002
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Hook, line and sinker? Or just nothing better to do at 12:30am when you're furloughed?:D :confused:
 

Otto

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Nov 26, 2001
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4,000+
MooseTrax said:
I assure you that the accident incident rates in the military are minimal due to lack of experience. The incidents occurr more because of the higher risk involved in the type of flying. We don't just takeoff and worry about landing somewhere.
Well said Moose. Benzene may not think much of your "low" military time but why don't we ask American, Delta (and pretty much anyone else who matters) what they think? I'm not saying mil is always better than civ...there's bad military pilots and great civ pilots. I just get hacked when civ guys say "the military boys" came along and "took our jobs" as if the mil guys haven't paid their dues. Yeah, we've got it so easy...those deployments to Saudi are such vacations. :rolleyes:
 

MooseTrax

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Joined
Jun 22, 2002
Posts
171
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5000
Anybody who read my previous post has missed the boat. The originator of this message made a statement that the reason the military hasmore accidents is because they are inexperienced. All I was rying to get across to those that aren't educated about the military is that the military flying is more high risk, thus more chance for accidents. In reply to the gent who said the tax payers paid for my licenses, I must correct you. I paid ALLATPS the full monty for my licenses. And if you think the flying time is free and easy, come live with us military folks in the desert far away from family and friends for 90 days at a time sometimes three times in two years. Everything has its price and you chose to go civilian. There are days I wish I did, but you won't ever see me bashing civilian flying because my experience is limited, so if you are going to comment on something, you ought to be educated about it. As far as experience vs. hours go, I could care less.

Moose
 

flyingdog

Active member
Joined
Nov 29, 2001
Posts
40
Total Time
enough
My Dear brother Moose;

I did some desert time. Interesting experience. I do not want to repeat it. Right now I'm looking outside and see only water. Have no idea what it is and where I am. D*#n it, better take one of those Migs flying carpets and check my position.
Hmmm! What in the world was I trying to say? Oh yes!
It doesn't matter civilian or military aircraft. As long planes will exist accidents will happen.
It doesn't matter civilian or military training. As long pilots will exist accidents will happen.
And the irony is that not only the stupid ones have accidents in aviation... Aces too. Actually is an old saying about Stupid and Aces....but I'm sure you know it.
It is like driving. When you are 16/17 you know for a fact that no teaching is needed. Nobody is better than you. When you reach 56/57 the need for learning is coming up.
We all have a job to do. It could be a bombing mission, it could be a drop off of some kind of rich guy, it could be just from point A to point B, or it could be a boxes love affair. It's our job. And if you have 100 hrs or 10000 hrs you have to do it. Love it or leave it. We all should be brothers. Only we understand the meaning of what we are doing.
 
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