No (real) Acro??

[fastandlow]

Thought of something I thought might bring some good discussion while reading the fear of heights thread...

Who has 1000 hrs or more of time and has not been upside down in an airplane?

Who has 1000 hrs and pro/turbine job and has not been upside down in an airplane???

Does typical 121 training does anything with radical unusual attitude recovery? I'd sure think some basic acro might help. As I recall, the crew of Alaska Air 261 tried in vein to push and roll our of their inverted dive.

Nothing wrong with that! Really. Just a topic for discussion... You folks who've never flown upside down ought to think about strapping on a Decathlon or Pitts one day!

Just hard to imagine someone in the front of a commercial jet (I'm riding in) never having looped or rolled a plane intentionally!!

bring on the flames and discussion...

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

Alaska crew had serious control problems, nothing to do with their acro time, or lack of it.

But to answer the question, upside down in a Citabria at 50 hour TT. And as often as I can bum an acro plane.


Haven't been upside down in a large jet .........yet ***Devious grin****

 

[fastandlow]

Alaska crew had serious control problems, nothing to do with their acro time, or lack of it.

You're right. As I recall, the stabilator trim jackscrew failure was a maintenance issue. But how the capt dealt with it did have something to do with being able to stay with it (trying to fly) while basically upside down.

 

[typhoonpilot]

A good friend of mine who flies for Fedex once made the mistake of telling me he hadn't been upside down in an airplane before. The mistake was that we were actually in an airplane at the time he said it. He can't make the same statement any longer .

Typhoonpilot

 

[FlyChicaga]

Done one roll in an airplane. Wasn't at the controls. But... done about five very-out-of-control recoveries of each airplane I've flown 121 in the simulator. Nothing like being inverted, 40 degrees nose down, reverser bucket out in one engine.

 

[88_MALIBU]

I spent a week in Mesa, AZ flying Extra 300's with Fighter Combat learning aerobatics and inverted flight with only the AI and AS indicator. Best money I have ever spent. I felt sick for 7 days but never puked, I feel your doing yourself and your passengers a disservice if you havent flown inverted with an instructor.

 

[airbaker]

I was an aerobatic instructor back in the day - mostly in Decathalons, but I also have a lot of time in the Pitts and Extra300. Now, with every hour I log in the A320, I feel my old stick and rudder skills evaporating....I sure miss it!

 

[EagleRJ]

I've got about 20 hours in a Super Decathalon. Great plane and loads of fun to fly, but it's just barely powerful enough for serious aerobatics. It's not certified for backwards flight either (tailslide, Lomcevak). I'd love to try out something like an Extra 300!

The CRJ-700 regional jet (or at least its simulator) is capable of the following maneuvers:
Aileron Roll
Barrel Roll
Four-point roll
Eight-point roll
Snap roll (followed immediately by departure!)
Loop
Immelman
Cuban Eight

 

[labbats]

Our sim training had a few unusual attitudes.

 

[nosehair]

What!? Airline Captains who haven't flown Acro!?...and I hear there's no more cigars on the flight deck anymore...can this be true??

 

[some_dude]

In the loop, how fast did the speed build up when coming back down? Did it overspeed?

The CRJ-700 regional jet (or at least its simulator) is capable of the following maneuvers:
Aileron Roll
Barrel Roll
Four-point roll
Eight-point roll
Snap roll (followed immediately by departure!)
Loop
Immelman
Cuban Eight

 

[Mr. Cole]

Well, I'm nowhere near 1000 hours yet, but I've gone up with Rich Stowell twice for spin training, control surface failures, and basic acro in the Super Decathlon. Based on those experiences I recently started doing acro training/tailwheel endorsement with an instructor across the NJ border in PA, also in the SD. I also found a competitive aerobatic instructor near my mother's house in Alabama, so I went up with him for some inverted spins the day after Christmas.

Dave

 

[NJA Capt]

The CRJ-700 regional jet (or at least its simulator) is capable of the following maneuvers:
Aileron Roll
Barrel Roll
Four-point roll
Eight-point roll
Snap roll (followed immediately by departure!)
Loop
Immelman
Cuban Eight

Sorry, unless flight tests were done in the aircraft and data points collected, the simulator is just "moving the EADI" in response to control inputs. The sim has no idea how the "real" airplane would react to those maneuvers. There is also no G-meter readout in the cockpit or instructors panel in the sim. It is not designed to replicate in-flight structural failure. Ever seen someone in the sim make a pullout 100 KIAS over redline and the wings don't rip off?

 

[bigD]

Sorry, unless flight tests were done in the aircraft and data points collected, the simulator is just "moving the EADI" in response to control inputs. The sim has no idea how the "real" airplane would react to those maneuvers.

I'm actually curious about this. Do the sims used for training do actual physics modelling, or do they use lookup tables to determine how to react to control inputs? Does anyone know how the software side works?

As for me - I once experienced some aerobatics in a Waco biplane, which was great fun, but that was before I was a pilot myself. Since then - over a thousand hours and not a thing (other than spins, of course).

 

[EagleRJ]

Sorry, unless flight tests were done in the aircraft and data points collected, the simulator is just "moving the EADI" in response to control inputs. The sim has no idea how the "real" airplane would react to those maneuvers. There is also no G-meter readout in the cockpit or instructors panel in the sim. It is not designed to replicate in-flight structural failure. Ever seen someone in the sim make a pullout 100 KIAS over redline and the wings don't rip off?

For the loop, as long as you have enough energy to take the plane past the vertical, the rest is done using AOA. Enter at Vmo, and as you come over the top, riding the shaker will give you the best possible performance from your wing to return the nose to the horizon- under control. Your airspeed may be below the 1G stall speed but remember, below 1G your wing is still flying as long as the stall AOA is not exceeded. On the recovery, AOA is respected until the airspeed comes up to around 150kts, and then I approximated a pitch rate that corresponded to about 2G on the airframe. Recovery was completed at around Vmo + 30, and about 5000 feet below the initial altitude.

This is more than just screwing around in the sim after a training event. It's good to know how your aircraft will respond in extreme conditions. You're right that the sim software is not modeled for this kind of thing, and there's no way to judge actual G-load (estimating G-load is tough, and we took the sim off motion so we wouldn't tear up the hydraulics). During a loop attempt with insufficient airspeed during the entry, the plane stalled inverted at the top, and eventually was recovered, where in real life, the actual airplane might have been unrecoverable.

These maneuvers drive home some points that are good to store in the back of your head, like the fact that there is still control available below the 1G stall speed. Also, how critical it is to correct any nose-low unusual attitude before the airspeed builds too much. Transport-category aircraft build speed like crazy when pointed towards the ground, and making a "passenger comfort" recovery might require 20,000 or 30,000 feet. Not hitting the ground is the first goal, and sometimes that might mean making use of every bit of the 150% load limit your aircraft was certificated with.

Sims are good for looking at "what if" scenarios, but every pilot should have some real acro time under their belt. If nothing else, so they can tell what 2G or 3G feels like in case the day ever comes when they have to use it.

 

[movingviolation]

about 1/3 of my total time is acro time. Maybe that's why nobody will hire me.


heh

"one ninty, two hundred..... ready...Take a deep breath.... here we go.... pull..... up and over now breath normal, look off your left side, over the top now, 80..... back around.... take a deep breath and here we go again.... pull...."

good times

 

[LXApilot]

Upside down in an airplane?

Not inverted, but darn close. Those people on that beach were running for their lives- I can still remember the looks on their faces as they grabbed their children in utter fear for their safet... excuse me, wasnt supposed to tell that story.

In sim training for the CE550 they will throw you a thrust reverser deployment on liftoff which rolls you inverted in a few seconds if you arent paying close attention. Or how about in CE650 when they will give you a uncommanded spoiler deployment - with that board popped up out there, its all you can do to keep the thing upright.

But of course thats just the sim - I'll 1/2 the cost with somebody around the Atlanta area if they want to go fly upside down for awhile. PM me!

Fly Safe-
Colin

 

[Immelman]

I'm a low-time non-pro pilot. I have about 60 hours in various Citabrias, probably half of that in the aerobatic practice area doing maneuvers.... they are no Pitts or Extra but it is a hell of a lot of fun and makes you a better stick!

..I personally like how certain myths are disspelled; a lot of "take off, turn on course, turn for approach, land" GA-pilot types seem to be surprised that the airplane has no idea which way the nose is pointed; its all about AoA and how much load you're putting on the wings.. that was my big take-home from learning a bit of acro anyways. That and rudder skills.. but that just comes from flying a taildragger I guess.

 

[Swede]

8 years of complicated 3D maneuvering at 9G's+ struggling to retain consciousness and keep my spine from shattering, as well as avoiding hostile aircraft while trying to destroy same.

But I'm just an FO.