NO please at Tranny!!

[wood pecker]

Does any one know how many pilots we have lost recently? And does anyone know how to spell recently? The latest seniority list still shows 5 guys I know who have quit. 1 was still on IOE, another just finished IOE, another hired Mar06, and the rest less than 1 year. Will history repeat itself and AAI require sign on contracts just to attract enough pilots to fill a class or will they just agree we are special and give us a contract?

 

[PCL_128]

1. The NPA is a very weak union and the company realizes this. Whoever replaces the current leadership (many who are running I have no confidence in) may think they no what they are doing but the result will be the same, because it is not necessarily who is in charge but the resources the union has on hand.................I blame a very inexperienced union called the NPA

Everyone would do very well to listen to this. Let's just say that the recall goes through and AP and MS are replaced with candidates that better understand and represent the opinions of the pilot group. Will it really help this situation? I say no. This situation isn't fixable with a simple replacement of a couple of figureheads at the top of the NPA. The problem we have is that we've outgrown the "student council" that represents us. We're going up against some guys in management that are very experienced in this business. And what do we have to counter that? A tiny little organization called the NPA with little resources and practically no experience. Sorry to use the tired old phrase, but we're bringing a knife to a gunfight. Management has virtually unlimited resources at their disposal. They can afford however many consultants and attorneys it takes for them to "win" this thing. Meanwhile, we have a tiny, young union with no National affiliation and no experience. Sorry, but we just don't stand a chance in this fight. If this pilot group wants to take their place with the rest of the big boys in the "major" airlines, then it's time to get a real union with real resources. Until we're ready to take that step, then we're just going to get beaten down.

 

[Frank Lorenzo]

Everyone would do very well to listen to this. Let's just say that the recall goes through and AP and MS are replaced with candidates that better understand and represent the opinions of the pilot group. Will it really help this situation? I say no. This situation isn't fixable with a simple replacement of a couple of figureheads at the top of the NPA. The problem we have is that we've outgrown the "student council" that represents us. We're going up against some guys in management that are very experienced in this business. And what do we have to counter that? A tiny little organization called the NPA with little resources and practically no experience. Sorry to use the tired old phrase, but we're bringing a knife to a gunfight. Management has virtually unlimited resources at their disposal. They can afford however many consultants and attorneys it takes for them to "win" this thing. Meanwhile, we have a tiny, young union with no National affiliation and no experience. Sorry, but we just don't stand a chance in this fight. If this pilot group wants to take their place with the rest of the big boys in the "major" airlines, then it's time to get a real union with real resources. Until we're ready to take that step, then we're just going to get beaten down.

What a lame excuse. Obviously you haven't learned a thing from watching a few of the legacy carriers contracts go down the tubes. Several of the ALPA carriers went into BK, and they were all threatened with severe contractual concessions.

All of them huffed and puffed....... in the end, they all caved like a house of cards.

Moral of the story - you are only as strong as the collective spine of the membership. National affiliation, lawyers, "connections" etc. are all buzz words that don't mean spit.

The RLA is a very simple process. You representatives negotiate with the company, then present a mutually agreed to TA. If you don't like it, then vote NO. It's as simple as that. If the company doesn't present a compensation package high enough to what you think you deserve, then you withold your services a.k.a. strike.

It seems to me here that you want someone else to do the hard and dirty work for you. What's the problem over there at the Tranny? Nobody volunteering? Why isn't the membership better informed? Why is everybody shooting for such LOW expectations?

Before you point your finger or say "the union should..." you had better be first in line ready to volunteer and do some work.

 

[SkiFishFly]

What a lame excuse. Obviously you haven't learned a thing from watching a few of the legacy carriers contracts go down the tubes. Several of the ALPA carriers went into BK, and they were all threatened with severe contractual concessions.

All of them huffed and puffed....... in the end, they all caved like a house of cards.

Moral of the story - you are only as strong as the collective spine of the membership. National affiliation, lawyers, "connections" etc. are all buzz words that don't mean spit.

The RLA is a very simple process. You representatives negotiate with the company, then present a mutually agreed to TA. If you don't like it, then vote NO. It's as simple as that. If the company doesn't present a compensation package high enough to what you think you deserve, then you withold your services a.k.a. strike.

It seems to me here that you want someone else to do the hard and dirty work for you. What's the problem over there at the Tranny? Nobody volunteering? Why isn't the membership better informed? Why is everybody shooting for such LOW expectations?

Before you point your finger or say "the union should..." you had better be first in line ready to volunteer and do some work.

Keep this up Frank and you are going to have to give up that screen name...

 

[Lear70]

Moral of the story - you are only as strong as the collective spine of the membership. National affiliation, lawyers, "connections" etc. are all buzz words that don't mean spit.

TRUE DAT!

The RLA is a very simple process. You representatives negotiate with the company, then present a mutually agreed to TA. If you don't like it, then vote NO. It's as simple as that. If the company doesn't present a compensation package high enough to what you think you deserve, then you withold your services a.k.a. strike.

Again, we have a winner. The question is, do we have enough people here who are willing to get their hands dirty, 'cause that's what it's going to take...

There's one guy running who thinks we can REDUCE the staff during contract talks, REDUCE our budget, and he can run the union while still being a line pilot on a daily basis and no one will have to worry about picketing or chaos or striking, he'll just "fix" it. WAY wrong approach, and I hope the membership sees past the "easy path" and realizes nothing good comes without struggle.

It seems to me here that you want someone else to do the hard and dirty work for you. What's the problem over there at the Tranny? Nobody volunteering?

Very few. The leadership has been running an "in favor / out of favor" court for a long time. Not to mention a lot of people here came from regionals and they're a bit shell-shocked, just happy to have a better QOL.

Problem is, if this goes through, that QOL will disappear for many people on the list, ESPECIALLY newly-upgraded Captains. Have to educate them of that fact.

Why isn't the membership better informed?

Because the NPA leadership doesn't WANT the pilots better-informed. They want them compliant with whatever THEY think is best for the company. Again, too many new people for that approach to work anymore, hence the wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Why is everybody shooting for such LOW expectations?

Because they've been very carefully conditioned for the last several years by not only the company but their own NPA. It's actually disgusting to watch when your own elected leadership tries scare tactics, strong-arm tactics, and outright falsehoods at roadshows to advance their T.A.

That's what got me involved to begin with, got sick of NOT being represented. Hell, my own status rep just parrots the party line, even when you present FACTS that point out the lies.

Before you point your finger or say "the union should..." you had better be first in line ready to volunteer and do some work.

He's got a long resume of union work, but he's likely waiting to see who ends up in office.

I won't get involved either if the wrong people are in control. Kind of like p*ssing into the wind. Been there, done that, have that t-shirt. That's why it's so CRITICAL we elect Leadership who has the same agenda and goals that most of us *appear* to desire.

I could be WAY off-base and, if so, I'll just shut up and fly my trips, but I think everyone is tired of the black helicopter leadership with mushroom mentality communications and sub-par contract offerings. Could be wrong, it's happened before.

 

[Lear70]

Does any one know how many pilots we have lost recently? And does anyone know how to spell recently? The latest seniority list still shows 5 guys I know who have quit. 1 was still on IOE, another just finished IOE, another hired Mar06, and the rest less than 1 year. Will history repeat itself and AAI require sign on contracts just to attract enough pilots to fill a class or will they just agree we are special and give us a contract?

Good questions.

The NPA knows, it's part of the dues checkoff requirement... they have to know who to take off the list.

I wouldn't imagine the people maintaining that list for us are too concerned about its accuracy for US. I'm sure the number of people leaving has jumped, and will only go up as NWA and UAL start actually conducting classes.

SWA might even out those attrition rates, at least for a while, as they are slowing their growth, but they have several hundred in the pool, including Hobday and some others here who will leave when their number comes up.

Signing contract? I doubt it. Signing bonus, maybe. (yeah, right). When the well spring of talent dries up, they'll just expand their "minimums" and attract lower-time RJ guys who can't *quite* get on with the majors yet. Would be a short-sighted move to leave before they got 1,000 PIC 121 but it would ensure they stay here for several years as they wouldn't be marketable elsewhere.

 

[PCL_128]

What a lame excuse. Obviously you haven't learned a thing from watching a few of the legacy carriers contracts go down the tubes. Several of the ALPA carriers went into BK, and they were all threatened with severe contractual concessions.

All of them huffed and puffed....... in the end, they all caved like a house of cards.

Several of those legacy ALPA carriers ended up with snapback clauses (DAL pilots get up to 6% annual raises if the company is profitable) and bankruptcy claims (senior DAL pilots got a $400k check) through the negotiating process during their bankruptcies. Do you think the NPA could have achieved the same result? If you do, then you haven't been paying very close attention. No union can prevent concessions while in bankruptcy, but the right union can provide resources and experience that allow you to minimize the damage.

Moral of the story - you are only as strong as the collective spine of the membership. National affiliation, lawyers, "connections" etc. are all buzz words that don't mean spit.

Bulls#&%. The strength of the membership is certainly important, but what happens behind closed doors during negotiations is highly dependant on those fancy lawyers and the experience of the negotiators and advisors that you have available.

The RLA is a very simple process. You representatives negotiate with the company, then present a mutually agreed to TA. If you don't like it, then vote NO. It's as simple as that. If the company doesn't present a compensation package high enough to what you think you deserve, then you withold your services a.k.a. strike.

That's a vast oversimplification of a very complicated process. How 'bout things like scope and R & I? You think any old Joe can negotiate these complicated sections? ALPA has attorneys that specialize in these matters that can help write the language. What do we have? Skipper. We have the help of Seth, but he's just a single attorney that doesn't specialize in every area that is needed during a complicated negotiating process.

Before you point your finger or say "the union should..." you had better be first in line ready to volunteer and do some work.

I've got 5 years of union work under my belt, so I think I've got a little bit of credibility when I talk about the NPA and unions in general. But I agree with you that we need the right people to step up to the plate and do the job.

 

[DougCorp-9]

The new TA is on the NPA website. Get to work Lear.

 

[Lear70]

Dang, you're fast.

I checked the website an hour ago and it wasn't up yet.

Shouldn't take too long, I don't think they've messed with too much but I'll have to double-check. I really wish they would post the copy that we used for negotiations - it has changes in red and highlight bars on the sides to show you exactly what changed and where.

 

[Lear70]

1st thing that I checked was the pay rate reductions per hour we gave back to get back core block.

An average of $1.70 per hour less for the CA's in every year and longevity scale, an average of $0.50 cents an hour less for the F/O's, or about 1-1.5% of the total hourly rates.

One of our guys put together an excellent table that shows what our pay rates for every year for both seats should be adjusted for COLA. I'll post it later alongside the current rates and proposed rates and probably put it in a graph so you can see how close the proposed rates are to baseline COLA off our current wages.

Have other stuff to do today, will work on this more this afternoon...