No gun-totin' in the cockpit

[skydiverdriver]

Hey aero boy, how well will the pressurization system work if you are below 10 thousand feet? Not very well, huh?

Lancair, you say that we all have to be armed, why do you draw that conclusion? It has always been an optional thing, and that is far safer. It works just as well as states that have ccw permits. Nobody knows which citizens have guns, so the criminals leave everyone alone.

Even submarines in the US Navy have personel with sidarms available. Everyone on the sub is backround checked and a US citizen. Stopping them from getting on the aircraft is never going to work. I think we need a final line of defense. But, it looks like we are not going to get it. Good luck to all of you.

 

[lancair1]

I would certainly settle for it to be optional.

From my view, I can barely comprehend some people's emotional fret about protecting themselves and the cockpit. I'm sure that the pilots on the 11th grabbed for the axe without hesitation. Using an axe is more emotionally gripping, and completely less effective, if not useless.

I realize that some pilots don't like the idea of sending a slug into another person, but the value of having that ability is now priceless.

I know some officers of the law. None enjoy the thought of having to use their tools, but they are trained and required to do so for the greater good of their lives, and the lives of others.

Besides, if pilots can get over their perceived stress of having a gun in cockpit, the procedure to stop a tragedy is far less complex than squaking vfr.

 

[FracPilot]

Pilots don't need guns!! They already have a last-resort weapon built into their aircraft. It's called the pressurization system. Don the emergency oxygen masks and dump the cabin pressure.

And then the oxygen masks drop.....and the hijacker just grabs a mask, finds the portable system(all the while killing everybody they come across), then head for the cockpit. Or they just grab one of the portable O2 systems BEFORE they attempt to hijack the plane, and when the pilots dump pressurization they disable the pax that are trying to intervene.

I know what you're going to say......disable the auto-drop function for the O2 masks in the back. But what happens on the aircraft where you CANNOT disable the auto-drop? Such as an Airbus.

Your theory sounds good initially, but there are too many holes in it.

 

[machspeed]

I have heard alot of good points on both sides but the best is do we want to force people to carry guns that don't want to. Statistics prove that a gun in the home has about an 80% chance of killing a friend or family member then an intruder. I have flown with enough captains that i barely trust with the aircraft much less their decisions on using a gun.

machspeed

Maybe i can get kilomike to ride on my flights with his super human strength to protect my aircraft.

 

[FR8mastr]

some of you guys had better wake up and smell the coffee! Maybe when the terrorist is slicing our throats we could just talk to them, understand their feelings, and then hold hands a sing to each other. Do you people actually listen to yourselves spewing this PC horsecrap. Dump the cabin? " I can get my plane down in 7 minutes"? "Our job is to fly the aircraft"? Most of this has been covered by rational people but I must vent also. First only volunteers would carry, these volunteers would be deputy air marshalls with jurasdiction in the cockpit only!! They would be psycologically screened by the FBI and held to markmanship standards higher than the airmarshals in the back. Dumping the cabin by the time you started to dump they would be halfway thru the door and they would not need much time after that. Also you would be putting to sleep any potential help from the back. How are you going to land the plane in your seven mins. when you are dead? This is just too rediculous, I know, you can call the cops, and let the professionals handle it. I'm sure they will get there in time.

fire away

 

[350DRIVER]

some of you guys had better wake up and smell the coffee!

I don't like coffee nor do I enjoy the smell...

Maybe when the terrorist is slicing our throats we could just talk to them, understand their feelings, and then hold hands a sing to each other

I highly doubt you need to worry about this situation ever "duplicating" itself again BUT "if" an attempt would ever be made again (which I pray never happens ever again) I think that logical reasoning would illustrate that a different method and technique would be used to attempt to take control of the aircraft so with that being said I highly doubt that a gun would save the day.

pilots are pilots not "security" officers, police, or GI Joe's-

IF the hijacker (s) is prevented from being on the aircraft then the problem has already been solved and the gun issue is "irrelevant".

It is a done deal so whether you agree/disagree I guess everyone has to adapt and "accept" the cards that we have been dealt.

C H E E R S
3 5 0

 

[lancair1]

350, I'm assuming you're willing to bet your life on it. How about everyone else's?

The blind faith so many have in this "someone else will solve my problem" mindset is actually not too surprising. It's the american way to hope that someone else will handle the problem at hand.

It only takes 5-10 minutes for police to show up at my door if I call 911. Am I willing to bet the lives of my family on that, along with my home's alarm system, being effective enough to stop something horrible from happening? Nope.. No blind trust here.

You're right about it being a mute point though. It'll probably take another loss of 3,000+ lives to make people think we should "really think seriously" about protecting the cockpit.

 

[hyper]

I clearly understand the points made from both sides. I wish there was a feasible solution to solve all aspects, but we all know that won't happen, ESPECIALLY with the govt. involved. I'll agree 100% that the last thing we need is an inexperienced handgun waver in the cockpit at FL350 going 500mph. However, not all pilots are bumbling idiots in the use and safety of handguns. I'll agree that not all should be allowed to carry one and there are other issues at hand such as ground security and accidents, and no, I don't have those answers. But, I've owned and actively practiced with guns far longer than I've flown. As long as criminals have guns, so will I. Done so in a responsible manner, my home is safe for any child to enter and a death trap for anyone intending theft or harm. Properly trained and required to meet specific standards with checkouts on a regular basis (something sound familiar here?) guns in the cockpit don't need to be a far-fetched reality.

Again, a last resort when the door has been compromised. And nothing more. Pilots that are unsure, inexperienced, or uncomfortable with it.....don't carry one. Ones that can meet requirements such as accuracy, psych evaluations, and scenario tests should have that option. Treat it with the same respect and accuracy as we do our aircraft.

Not intended to start a new flame war, just some thoughts from a responsible gun owner and pilot.

 

[350DRIVER]

Again- Why not prevent the hijacker from gaining access to the aircraft in the first place as well as not allowing the door to be "compromised" at any time as you put it... I as well as many others would much rather prevent a problem before it even starts.

IF acceptable standards and regulations are put into place on the ground then this "should" prevent the "gun issue" from even coming into the equation and everyone will live happily ever after..

I strongly feel that this problem is with airport security and should be handled on the ground versus in the air- What other choices do you have? The gun debate now (present time) is "dead" "over"- You can either continue to cry, complain, and "wish" the situation was different or make the best out of the situation with the cards you have been dealt-

C H E E R S
3 5 0

 

[NCFlyer]

Let me add my .02 to this conversation.

Just as a background note: I spent 7 years in law enforcement prior to changing careers. I have been in airline flying now for 16 years. So I have at least a little experience in both endeavors.

My opinion is that guns in the cockpit is the most absurd idea promoted by ALPA. We need fewer weapons on the aircraft not more. Guns present an entire set of difficulties, such as:

1. How are do you carry the thing? (open carry or concealed)
2. What do you do with the gun while in the airplane?
3. What do you do with the gun during your overnights? In many cities weapons require a permit or are completely illegal.
4. Do you carry the gun to the food court for lunch? If not where do you leave it?
5. How do you get by security? The last thing we need is some terrorist with a fake ID and a second hand uniform bypassing security while carrying a gun in the open.
6. If a hijacker or terrorist knows that there is a weapon on the aircraft all he needs to do is figure out how to get control of it, not how to get a weapon on board.

Now let's think about the use of a weapon.

1. Are you going to draw from a concealed carry position while seated? That is something that requires practice. As a LEO we practiced over and over how to draw and fire from different body positions, and carry positions with both strong hand and weak hand.
2. As a captain, if you are right handed there is no way you can draw right-handed and bring the weapon to aim on the cockpit door without changing hands.
3. Not to mention the #1 cardinal rule in firearms. Never point the weapon in a direction that you wouldn’t want it to fire. So how do you get the weapon aimed at the door without swinging the line of fire past the other pilot? I don't know about you but I have a HUGE problem with any pilot pointing a loaded weapon at me.

Let us step back and think just what are we trying to accomplish here? Defend the cockpit! Let me suggest:

On the aircraft I fly the cockpit door is about 1" thick made of honeycomb aluminum. Mounted with three 1/8" hinges. Fastened with a lock that is inferior to the door lock on my bedroom closet. Now deadbolts and reinforcing bars have helped a great deal.

2. Construct the door of armor plate steel. 1/2" thick should be plenty maybe 3/8" or 5/16” would be sufficient. If weight is a problem, the door could be made of some of the synthetic ballistic nylons. Mount the door with a full-length stainless steel hinge. Then secure the door with at least three 2" hardened steel pins or dead bolts. You could rest assured that no one could get through the door with anything that they could sneak on.

At this point our problem then becomes that we as cockpit crewmembers must never open the door to allow any one in. That would take a very different frame of mind. If some one were in the cabin attacking or killing passengers or crewmembers it would be difficult not to want to get involved. Also we must never get involved with any passenger dispute, as that could be just a ruse to get us to open the cockpit door.

Then we would have secured all cockpits instead of only those cockpits with “gunslingers” on board.