No ALPA for Chicago Express

[Captain X]

Looks like the ALPA Representation vote did not pass at Chicago Express......by a VERY thin margin.

From what I understand, Chicago Express management ran a pretty good "scare" campaign to get pilots against ALPA representation.....sad tactics and a sad day.

Better luck next year.

 

[ifly4food]

That's too bad. I pity what these pilots are soon to encounter. In these bad economic times, union representation is worth every penny.

However, I can't say I blame them too much after seeing all of the strife within our union over unequal representation at the regional level.

Let this be a warning to ALPA. If it continues its duplicitous ways these failures will continue. How humiliating... this organizing campaign should have been a walk in the park for the world's largest pilot union.

 

[ultrarunner]

From what I understand, Chicago Express management ran a pretty good "scare" campaign to get pilots against ALPA representation.....sad tactics and a sad day.
[/B]

Uhh, yeah, that's what it must have been....and not anyone looking at the facts or thinking for themselves. Give the group more credit, will ya!

 

[Typhoon1244]

Re: Re: No ALPA for Chicago Express

Originally posted by ultrarunner
Uhh, yeah, that's what it must have been....and not anyone looking at the facts or thinking for themselves. Give the group more credit, will ya!

A member of the organizing committee is a very close friend of mine--I've known him since our mother brought him home from the hospital. So I have some insight into the Chicago Express situation that you don't.

There was a very effective scare campaign being run by management and the top 10% of the seniority list, senior captains who felt they had a great deal to lose if ALPA came onboard. There was even a Benedict Arnold, a captain named Piekert (not sure of the spelling) who gave information on the organizing committee to the company in exchange for favors.

The sad truth is that the majority of C.E.'s pilots--with a few notable exceptions--are too new to the industry to understand just how much ALPA membership would be worth to them. The junior pilots are so happy just to have a job flying airplanes, they have neither the time nor the inclination to seriously consider the union issue. The company and their "bosses" (old captains) make a lot of negative noise, and they buy it. The perceived injustices being visited upon "express pilots" elsewhere didn't help any either.

I hope my friend and his fellow organizers don't start mysteriously flunking checkrides now...

 

[ultrarunner]

Re: Re: Re: No ALPA for Chicago Express

snip

The sad truth is that the majority of C.E.'s pilots--with a few notable exceptions--are too new to the industry to understand just how much ALPA membership would be worth to them. The junior pilots are so happy just to have a job flying airplanes, they have neither the time nor the inclination to seriously consider the union issue. The company and their "bosses" (old captains) make a lot of negative noise, and they buy it. The perceived injustices being visited upon "express pilots" elsewhere didn't help any either. [/B]

Well, that's too bad for them, and unfortunate. But in a few years, they may be wiser, and more experienced, and listen to a different slant, and may vote differently...maybe.... only time will tell.

 

[learob]

Just because this pilot group shot down ALPA does not mean that they not know what they were doing, or were to new to the industry to know any better. I have worked at 3 airlines so far only 1 needed ALPA and that was Americas West. While at Skywest ALPA tried to organize us twice during my time and both times we told them no thanks and we had a very senior pilot group I think the average capt had been there for like 7 - 8 years. But by the same token I am sure they will try to organize Jetblue and if managment is still treating us the way they are right now then we wont need them, but if thinks change then I would vote for them in a heart beat. The CE guys are the ones who have to fly there and live with the results not us.

 

[TriStar_drvr]

Here's a link to an article about the vote in the Indy Star.

http://www.indystar.com/print/articles/3/015866-1843-031.html

It states that the average Chicago Express pilot earns $45,000 per year. I was suprised to see that, as I didn't think they earned that much. Oh well, I wish them the best.

 

[Typhoon1244]

No cancellation pay, no under-block, no over-block, pilots can be summarily removed from service with no explanation...nice voting guys!

 

[bart]

Sounds like mob rule lost out...

 

[surplus1]

No cancellation pay, no under-block, no over-block, pilots can be summarily removed from service with no explanation...nice voting guys!

Typh,

Don't be so hard on the CHX pilots. ALPA's unsuccessful effort to organzie them is not wholly their fault.

The double failure at SKYW is but another indicator of the ALPA's efforts to organize regional pilot groups. ALPA is selling (literally) a service that it is hard pressed to ensure it can or will provide. Some buyers aren't willing to pay in advance for what they might not get.

If the sales pitch or the salesmen were different, the vote might also be different.

 

[DoinTime]

It states that the average Chicago Express pilot earns $45,000 per year. I was suprised to see that, as I didn't think they earned that much. Oh well, I wish them the best.

I would bet that $45,000 is their "total compensation." This includes benefits such as medical, dental, life/loss of license insurance, sick time, vacation, contractual benefits, and everything else under the sun that the company thinks costs them money. My brother works for an outfit that labels compensation this way and its a pretty fair bet that if you subtract $15,000 from the number they give you'll get an accurate annual salary.

 

[Typhoon1244]

I agree. For an "average," $45K sounds awful high.

Last I heard, Chicago's pilots were still making only scheduled block pay. On a busy winter day, it may take them 2:45 to get from Indy to Midway...but they only get paid for the 1:10 it was scheduled for. (I've never actually flown a Saab from IND to MDW, so I'm making up numbers...but you get my point.) That sucks...but nobody used to care about stuff like that because they saw C.E. as a very small stepping stone. "Oh well, I'll be at (ATA, USAir, etc.) in two or three years."

Then comes September 11th, and guys realize they could be stuck at Chicago for severn or eight years...suddenly they're interested in listening to what ALPA has to say.

And Scott Hall (D.O., I think) and his fellow managers brought out ever big gun and dirty trick they could find to fight it. (I heard that CCAir's MEC is suing Chicago Express for using some of its internal documents as evidence of the "evils" of ALPA.) ALPA's inept handling of the regional vs. mainline issue didn't help any either. Heck, the very existence of the RJDC gave C.E.'s management plenty of ammo.

Like it or not, accurate or not, ALPA is perceived by outsiders as being hostile to "express" pilots. If something doesn't change, outfits like Chicago Express and Skywest will remain the way they are.

 

[flyerc90]

I would like to know why everyone thinks that things are sooooooo bad at Chicago Express. The relationship between the pilots and management is great, and management is not out to "get anyone," of course there are those that dont get along with mgmt and that is where all the bad rumors start.

Let us be reminded that since 9/11, there were:
1) NO furloughs
2) in fact, the pilot group doubled in size
2) The fleet nearly doubled
3) More cities added

 

[C/L Max]

Flyerc90,

Nobody who flies for CEX said things are bad. What the ALPA organizing pilots were looking for was legal protection for what benefits we already have.

After September 11, the company 401K retirement plan was suspended. Granted, it was only temporary, but that action still left a bad taste in the mouths of those pilots who've seen life at other airlines and have families to provide for. The fear became "what'll get cut next?"

C8 currently has in place a Flight Operations Advisory Committee that acts in some ways like a union negotiating committee. The FOAC and the Management have produced a Policy and Procedures manual that acts somewhat like a contract. A pretty good contract, in fact. The problem is that the FOAC has absolutely no power to stop the Management from changing or throwing out the P&P Manual. "Paper tiger," "lame duck," "empty suit." Pick your title.

Also, please try to remember that a lack of furloughs doesn't automatically mean things are great at an airline. Neither does doubling the size of a pilot group, doubling the size of a fleet, or adding more cities. More pilots means higher labor costs, training costs, and (frankly) more bodies to police. More airplanes in a short period of time usually brings associated headaches for maintenence and the pilots, especially when the new Saabs aren't carbon copies of the first nine Saabs. And more cities in a small geographic area might mean opening one city at the expense of another (Moline used to be full all the time, until ATA opened Cedar Rapids within easy driving distance of MLI's customers; MLI now has the second lowest load factors of any C8 city).

As far as some of the other posts in this thread, I don't know where the Indy newspaper guy got $45K for an average salary. As a Saab Captain on 4th year pay, I make about $39K. First year F/Os bring home about $18K before taxes. These numbers don't include per diem, which is based on $30 per overnight, $25 per standup overnight.

Typhoon1244, it sounds like you know that guy at C8 pretty well! Be sure to tell him good luck. From what I've heard, the Boss at C8 has already made it clear that he will accept no bickering or "black balling" by any of his pilots and management team. I think the guys who were part of the Organizing Committee are safe. For now...