NJA Home Based for Training ONLY?!?

[atpcliff]

Hi!

This info is from "duckpilot" off of aptap.org, who's at NetJets:

As of last week, the union and mgt have agreed to allow all pilots to designate a 'Training Travel Airport.' This enables folks (like me) that don't live at their domicile the ability to fly from whichever is the closest major airpot to their residence. As the title implies, pilots will get funded travel to/from their residence, instead of to/from domicile for all company training events (recurrent, company recurrent, upgrade, etc).

Anyone know about this and/or homebasing for everyone?

cliff
YIP

 

[CA1900]

Anyone know about this and/or homebasing for everyone?

Pretty much exactly what your quote says. So for recurrent events, you can travel out of basically any of the airports that could be used for home-basing for the pre-new-contract guys. It certainly makes sense -- it's stupid for me to drive 3 hours from the major airport I'm near to pick up a flight that costs the company twice as much!

As far as home basing for all, I wouldn't expect that any earlier than the next contract (2010), if at all.

 

[NJA bound]

Anyone know about this and/or homebasing for everyone?

cliff
YIP

The management can open home basing to ALL PILOTS today if they chose to without consulting the union, it's in the current contract, the management just plain refuses to do it.

 

[gunfyter]

The management can open home basing to ALL PILOTS today if they chose to without consulting the union, it's in the current contract, the management just plain refuses to do it.

This is true.

Presently the Training takes up 3 of the 26 Tours you have each year. 2 tours are vacation so 3 tours are airlined from home and the remaining 21 tours start at your Domicile...

You commute 21 times per yr to your domicile.

 

[FLYLOW22]

This is true.

From the 2005 CBA in regards to HBAs...​

13.1(b) Home Base Airport Participation​

The Company may limit Crewmember participation in the Home Base Airport system to thirty (30) percent of the total number of Crewmembers on the most current seniority
list...​

Meaning that the company is not required to maintain the 30% number. They would make it 100%. They just don't want to.​

==================================================​

In regards to Domiciles...​

13.2(c) Domestic Domicile Openings and Closings​

The Company may open new Domiciles at its discretion, however, a Crewmember ssigned to, or who has designated a Domicile, cannot be involuntarily assigned to a different or new Domicile, except as may be provided elsewhere in this Agreement. The company agrees to provide 90 days written notice of new Domicile openings to the
Union and all crewmembers.​

The company could open additional Domiciles, say 50 or so, provided it provides 90 days notice. I am sure the Union would not mind. I bet the Union would consider a one time relaxation of the 90 day notice restriction to add them.​

New attrition numbers came out recently at revealed that of those pilots leaving, 76% had less than 2 years with the company. Hmmm. 2007 minus 2 is 2005. 2005 is the year we started this Domicile thing. Domiciles were something that the company absolutely insisted on. I guess this is all part of "the plan".​

 

[Sparse]

Intereting. Maybe they don't want longivity.

 

[FLYLOW22]

Intereting. Maybe they don't want longivity.

Yes, one would think. The problem is that experienced pilots take a while to learn many of the Fractionalisms out there related to customer service. I'd say a couple of years is what it takes to not only learn the plane but learn how to really take care of the Owners and service the airplane properly.

This job isn't just about moving from A to B.

No longevity? Less customer service and just a continual recycle of training.

That is NOT what the Owner should be paying for. New employees are healthy and so is training but training excessively because of whack policy is just stupid and a waste of time and resources; time and resources we could be speding on growing.

What a CROSSROADS we are at...

 

[honeycomb]

76+% of the attrition is less than 2 years.

It sure doesn't sound like they, NJA mgnt, are hurting over the HBA issue.

The pilots shouldn't give those mgnt wennies a penny for HBA. But, in the end they, NJA mgnt, would like to push to get something for it. Seems to me that the pilots gave up something for the current system. Why would they give up something to fix a mgnt problem. That being the HBA's.

Oh yeah, ATP Cliff that new agreement is how it was done in the past. Travel to training from home. Nothing new, just bringing back the past to the present.

But, hey what do I know. (I don't need an answer btw.)


Peace.

 

[gunfyter]

Intereting. Maybe they don't want longivity.

I don't buy that theory.

They wanted the Domiciles to work and to recruit many who would stay there happily. But create a division because of HBA-envy and a bargaining Chip.

Attrition hurts their cause.

 

[dudemize]

How high is the attrition on a pure numbers basis? 100/yr? 200/yr?

It seems the seniority list really hasn't grown that much in the last couple years despite all the hiring.

 

[gunfyter]

Looks like about 10 per month.

Here is the problem...

You are forced to commute to LAX or TEB on SIC pay.

In the past one could upgrade to PIC very quickly. But coming in @ # 2700... you likely need 4000 pilots on the property before your turn to upgrade will come. 1300 more pilots ... Thats probably 4 yrs worth of new hires.

SIC pay is not like @ some of the airlines where it goes up significantly after the Probabtion year.

So now you estimate 4 or 5 yrs before upgrade. Its costing you $6K to $10K per year to commute to your Domicile. You have a brand new Falcon 2000, G200 or Sovereign type rating ... and you receive offers to fly for DOUBLE the money from companies in your local area where you don't have to commute. OR you get a call from Southwest or Delta.

I believe few people would take these offers if they could get on HBA status instead of commuting to LAX or TEB.

 

[skiandsurf]

How high is the attrition on a pure numbers basis? 100/yr? 200/yr?

It seems the seniority list really hasn't grown that much in the last couple years despite all the hiring.

Here is a small sampling of the attrition list.

49 have left this yr. (Jan-May)

only 1.....from a 2007 newhire class date.

12 from ____-2001.
12 from 2002-2005.
25 from 2006-2007.

As with any airline, the junior guys jump ship in search of that dream job.

I have heard that we are losing 50% of all newhires, and while it seems that the list is growing slower than we would like, this is obviously not true.

 

[NJA bound]

It seems the seniority list really hasn't grown that much in the last couple years despite all the hiring.

In the past year and a half the seniority list has grown from 2200 pilots to more than 2600.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Jan 2006 - 2254 pilots
May 2006 - 2444 pilots

Jan 2007 - 2608 pilots
May 2007 - 2656 pilots

 

[dudemize]

Thanks for the info, guys.

So if one came in at #2700, wouldn't there need to be around 4500 pilots on property before upgrade assuming the 60/40 ratio? That would mean 1800 more pilots at approx 300/yr. That would equate to 6 years for upgrade. This is assuming hiring remains constant and the attrition remains close to what it is now.

 

[Guitar Guy]

Jan 2006 - 2254 pilots
May 2006 - 2444 pilots

Jan 2007 - 2608 pilots
May 2007 - 2656 pilots

Those two time periods look that they might indicate two things. The earlier 2006 period looks like perhaps a lot of pilots were excited about the new CBA. Then the 2007 period looks like the reality of the dumb-a-ciles and the long upgrade times has set in.

 

[gunfyter]

Thanks for the info, guys.

So if one came in at #2700, wouldn't there need to be around 4500 pilots on property before upgrade assuming the 60/40 ratio? That would mean 1800 more pilots at approx 300/yr. That would equate to 6 years for upgrade. This is assuming hiring remains constant and the attrition remains close to what it is now.

YES but I would go with a 70/30 ratio... and 4 yrs as SIC.

 

[Ultra Grump]

Those two time periods look that they might indicate two things. The earlier 2006 period looks like perhaps a lot of pilots were excited about the new CBA. Then the 2007 period looks like the reality of the dumb-a-ciles and the long upgrade times has set in.

Bingo!

 

[Guitar Guy]

Bingo!

Here's hoping that the brain trust in Columbus and Woodbridge get the same message. They only need to make a simple decision that's already within their power to make in order to cut attrition and training costs and to attract the sort of experienced pilots that they want.

And before anyone asks, the company can open any domiciles or even give HBA to everyone on its own initiative. It's already in the current contract - no "union approval" needed.

 

[fischman]

If I got hired TODAY, I would plan on flying out of a domicile until at least 2010.

I would plan on being on SIC pay for at LEAST 5 years.

For more info, go to www.ibt1108.org.