NJA Captains do your F'ing job and take care of your FO's

[pilotpat]

I've been flying fractional for 5 years. Never called in fatigue, and trust me, I've had my share of 14 hour days and 16 hour days.

Sorry, man...but 16 hour days are nothing to brag about. That's just stupid flying there. You wanna really man up? Then tell 'em you're tired. Admit it. Its okay. Really. Why the heck do you think there have been studies about fatigued flying? What? You think its some kind of myth?

 

[HiSpeedFlyer]

I've been flying fractional for 5 years. Never called in fatigue, and trust me, I've had my share of 14 hour days and 16 hour days. What you are really saying is that,with all your experiences at netjets ,no one goes that long without calling in fatigued. I mean, you actually say that no one goes 11 months without doing it. To me, that's pathetic. I thought you guys had it easy at netjets? That's all you talk about is how good it is over there; are you now saying that they work everyone so hard that fatigue is a problem across the board? Cry me a river.

Is that Jealousy, Ignorance, or just plain stupidity I read in your last post, Doyle?

the fatigue thing is a safety tool , plain and simple. If you are not fit to fly, whether it is consecutive 14 and 10's on the opposite coast, and your body clock aint functioning, or there was the amateur porn star tryout next to your room the night before, and you werent sleeping regardless of the pillows over your head or earplugs in your ears. (Yes, It did happen to me in PNE last year, I couldnt make it up!) The fatigue call we use is to assure we will provide stellar LIVE service the next day, unlike some of our aviation fraternity who can't say that 'cause they are dead. The company embraces it, our DO preaches it to us, and we use it. Does our company work us hard, sometiimes, sometimes not. But that aint the reason we fatigue.
Cry me a river?? No, methinks you should get your facts straight and check your ignorance at the door.

 

[hydrarkt]

I have been at NJA for 7 years. I definately agree that there are many captains who are afraid to do the right thing. I get pissed when an FO on probation complains to me because his Cpt won't call in fatigued even though the FO told him that he was tired. I always tell the FO that HE can call in fatigued as well. He doesn't have to rely on the Capt. Of course, I realize that being on probation, it's probably tougher to undermine the Captain. Those that have been here a while know that an FO won't get fired for calling in fatigued. But you must understand their trepidation
That being said, if you are an FO who is OFF probation, then don't cry to me, "my Captain won't call in fatigued for us." As an FO, "YOU CAN CALL IN FATIGUED" for yourself.
If you are a Capt, don't be a wimp. Use your authority to look out for your crew, whether it's about crewfood, fatigue, illness or whatever.
I never hesitate to call in fatigued. I am an IOE-IP and know that newbies will get tired much quicker than normal crews because they have the added pressures of learning everything and performing to par. I always tell them that if they are fatigued, I will call in fatigued for the both of us.
Take control of your situation and do the right thing.

 

[Seat 0A]

What a bunch of crap, quit crying. If you have something to say to your FO's, say it. If you have something to say to the rest of us, say it on the Union board. What do you see happening for the good here?????

Hey 402, which part of it is crap? It is all based on REAL conversations with 4 REAL probationary FO's. And where in my post did you feel that I was attacking FO's? That is just plain retarded. It was a post in SUPPORT of FO's. In fact within 3 hours of the start of this post I was privately contacted by no less than 4 of them thanking me. I won't post those discussions but will take the liberty of a small excerpt. It starts: "You speak the truth!".

There is no crying going on here. If you could have seen these guys when I "did the right thing" for the crew you would have seen what looked like a 500 pound weight lifted from their shoulders. They actually sighed and said things like "man I really needed that extra rest, a Captain never did that before", or "I am so glad to not be stuck in a smoking room, I had two of them last tour and there was no way out of it". There is your bunch of crap.

 

[Seat 0A]

I've been flying fractional for 5 years. Never called in fatigue, and trust me, I've had my share of 14 hour days and 16 hour days. What you are really saying is that,with all your experiences at netjets ,no one goes that long without calling in fatigued. I mean, you actually say that no one goes 11 months without doing it. To me, that's pathetic. I thought you guys had it easy at netjets? That's all you talk about is how good it is over there; are you now saying that they work everyone so hard that fatigue is a problem across the board? Cry me a river.

Well, nothing more needs to be said about this one....but here it goes.

A lot of my days at NJA are pretty easy, and I usually don't fly more than 25 hours in a 7 day tour, but it only takes moving from the front side of the clock to the backside within 24 hours followed by a 14 hour day and you are fatigued. The only difference is whether or not you can determine that you are fatigued. Those of us who have actually studied this condition know that you are the absolute poorest judge of when this condition exists.

We may read about you someday. The article will make note of things like: He was up for 20 hours, Showed for duty at 0300, the hotel clerk said they were at the hotel for just 7 hours, etc. On the upside it may say "He never missed a minute of work" (that would be great on a tombstone).

Now, good luck and get out there and be a team player.

 

[Diesel]

Look its pretty simple are there captains that don't take care of their crews? Yup. Are their FO's who don't do crap in the cabin because its below them? Yup. In every group you have people that aren't doing their job 100 percent.

Now blaming the captains for their own shortcomings of not knowing the contract is just sillly. If anything at least read the blue book. Should the captains be blamed for an FO not collecting all that overtime pay on FRDA or before 8am? Or do the FO's know about the overtime pay sections just didn't read the rest of the contract?

Common I'm all for acting like a crew but at some point you actually have to read the contract.

As far as fatigue calls go. Yup i've called in fatigue a bunch. I hope they are tracking every call because my body can only do so many 14/10's. The companies position is, we schedule it, you decide if you're safe. Fine with me if the schedule is unrealistic on the body clock, or how hard its humping on a 7 day tour.

 

[Seat 0A]

Now blaming the captains for their own shortcomings of not knowing the contract is just sillly.

My contention here is not that the Captains don't know the contract but rather why they choose to act like an A-teamer and not look out for the best interests of themselves and their FO. As I said in the original post, many of these probationary FO's really are looking to the left seat for guidance. They are in a "make no waves" mindset while in that first year and will fly tired if asked to.

 

[HiSpeedFlyer]

I have been at NJA for 7 years. I definately agree that there are many captains who are afraid to do the right thing. I get pissed when an FO on probation complains to me because his Cpt won't call in fatigued even though the FO told him that he was tired. I always tell the FO that HE can call in fatigued as well. He doesn't have to rely on the Capt. Of course, I realize that being on probation, it's probably tougher to undermine the Captain. Those that have been here a while know that an FO won't get fired for calling in fatigued. But you must understand their trepidation
That being said, if you are an FO who is OFF probation, then don't cry to me, "my Captain won't call in fatigued for us." As an FO, "YOU CAN CALL IN FATIGUED" for yourself.
If you are a Capt, don't be a wimp. Use your authority to look out for your crew, whether it's about crewfood, fatigue, illness or whatever.
I never hesitate to call in fatigued. I am an IOE-IP and know that newbies will get tired much quicker than normal crews because they have the added pressures of learning everything and performing to par. I always tell them that if they are fatigued, I will call in fatigued for the both of us.
Take control of your situation and do the right thing.

AMEN BROTHA!!
When this F/O is tired, thats where the ball stops rollin'.
It takes a crew to fly an airplane, kids, and without me, the plane aint going.
Its too bad people are too afraid to do what is right, whether if they are hungry, fatigued, or just not feeling up to par, because our owners are owed that.. they pay good money to be safe..period.

 

[Hogprint]

Flylow22 posted:

...Your dues money pays for that message board. Anyone who doesn't check that board regularly is both throwing away their dues money AND missing out on information that WILL cost them money on the road.

All NJAer's (especially new hires) reread Flylow's quote again.

We WOULD NOT be enjoying the fruits of our labors had that message board not been up and running at worst and at best it would have set the cause back many years IMO.

Remember also; it's more than the money. The scratch is nice, but the info can be priceless.

Become familiar with the CBA. Especially parts 19 & 28 if nothing else.

 

[FLYLOW22]

I've been flying fractional for 5 years. Never called in fatigue, and trust me, I've had my share of 14 hour days and 16 hour days. What you are really saying is that,with all your experiences at netjets ,no one goes that long without calling in fatigued. I mean, you actually say that no one goes 11 months without doing it. To me, that's pathetic. I thought you guys had it easy at netjets? That's all you talk about is how good it is over there; are you now saying that they work everyone so hard that fatigue is a problem across the board? Cry me a river.

No one ever said it was easy. No one ever said that we HAVE to make it harder than it needs to be either.

We DID say that we have the tools to opt out of further duty in the interests of safety.

Can you say the same? I hope that you can say yes!

 

[doylehargraves]

All I'm saying is I've never felt fatigued and, the 16 hour days I refer to were travel home days on airlines. I have no problem calling in fatigue; however, I've just never felt that way. The point here is that you guys feel like you should do it a couple of times a year because you can. To me, that's nothing to brag about, that's just being an incompetent lazy employee abusing company policy under the protection of a union. You netjet guys are just as miserable now as you were pre-contract; admit it.

 

[tk855]

All I'm saying is I've never felt fatigued and, the 16 hour days I refer to were travel home days on airlines. I have no problem calling in fatigue; however, I've just never felt that way. The point here is that you guys feel like you should do it a couple of times a year because you can. To me, that's nothing to brag about, that's just being an incompetent lazy employee abusing company policy under the protection of a union. You netjet guys are just as miserable now as you were pre-contract; admit it.

I think you are reading way too far into this "tool" we have at our disposal to assist us in being proffesional aviators. I apologize if you do not understand the concept, especially after claiming five years experience in the fractional industry! I also fear the danger you expose yourself, your crew, and your owners to by not being a proffesional and knowing when to say when. Perhaps you might want to re-evaluate your thought process and approach to this career you have chosen?

 

[acaTerry]

My contention here is not that the Captains don't know the contract but rather why they choose to act like an A-teamer and not look out for the best interests of themselves and their FO.

EXACTLY. I have rarely called fatigued, and when I am sick I call in sick. In these cases I have never, ever gotten any grief by the company over it. I do however, get the occasional ration (maybe teasing but it seethed of disdain) by the Captains who just happen to be east-coast based guys. Sorry, but a 0440 airline from PHX to EWR followed by a cab to TEB, then a string of "zero dark-thirty" shows makes me tired. Especially after having 3 off after the 6 day tour. I don't care if it's done all the time in the X. That's why I stayed out of the X. I know my contract, I fly the contract. I consider myself one of NJA's best FO's and have even gotten letters from the company regarding passengers who wrote in (I'd rather a tip! ). But man, don't screw with my rest or my health. I've said it on the 1108 boards and I'll say it here...A-teamers, knock it off. If you want to run yourself into the ground, volunteer to extend. Don't give your SIC krap over being sick or tired. If the company has no problem with it, neither should you. Keep in mind, that 14 hour limit, fatigue / sick policy may be harder to keep next time we negotiate if you keep making it a tough call for your FO to make and they never use it.
Drink school and stay in milk.

 

[realityman]

I have been at NJA for 7 years. I definately agree that there are many captains who are afraid to do the right thing. I get pissed when an FO on probation complains to me because his Cpt won't call in fatigued even though the FO told him that he was tired. I always tell the FO that HE can call in fatigued as well. He doesn't have to rely on the Capt. Of course, I realize that being on probation, it's probably tougher to undermine the Captain. Those that have been here a while know that an FO won't get fired for calling in fatigued. But you must understand their trepidation
That being said, if you are an FO who is OFF probation, then don't cry to me, "my Captain won't call in fatigued for us." As an FO, "YOU CAN CALL IN FATIGUED" for yourself.
If you are a Capt, don't be a wimp. Use your authority to look out for your crew, whether it's about crewfood, fatigue, illness or whatever.
I never hesitate to call in fatigued. I am an IOE-IP and know that newbies will get tired much quicker than normal crews because they have the added pressures of learning everything and performing to par. I always tell them that if they are fatigued, I will call in fatigued for the both of us.
Take control of your situation and do the right thing.

I agree with everything except the sentence in bold. This is exactly the attitude we have to teach the F/O's to ignore. Calling in fatigued IS NOT undermining the captain. It's ENHANCING safety, for the captain too. A fatigue call should not be looked at as harming anyone. I try very hard to teach my IOE's about this.

I also tend to agree with SEAT that the captains here at NJA have a responsibility to provide necessary guidance to the new guys, whether they're IOE-IP's or not. Actually, these days there's so much to cover in IOE that it's near impossible for the IOE-IP's to cover everything that would be helpful to the newhire. That's where the rest of our captains must step up.

However, if the newhires aren't even going to make an effort to read their conatracts, well, there's only so much any of us can to do to help that person. I had a recent IOE be scheduled to do something illegal (per the CBA) by the company. I told him he had the makings of a great grievance. He had no clue about it. I told him what section of the contract was being violated. Then I asked to see his contract so I could show him. And he told me he doesn't carry it with him! So the guy doesn't know his contractual rights, but doesn't want to be bothered to have it with him (or the Bluebook) so he can look things up. Being fairly new, I nicely advised him that it would be in his best interest to have it with him on subsequent tours, and maybe even open it once in a while. Will he do it? If not, I don't believe our captains are responsible for his ignorance. Especially 11 months into the new job.

 

[Guitar rocker]

All I'm saying is I've never felt fatigued and, the 16 hour days I refer to were travel home days on airlines. I have no problem calling in fatigue; however, I've just never felt that way. The point here is that you guys feel like you should do it a couple of times a year because you can. To me, that's nothing to brag about, that's just being an incompetent lazy employee abusing company policy under the protection of a union. You netjet guys are just as miserable now as you were pre-contract; admit it.

Oh, so NOW your 16 hour duty day all of a sudden involves travel. I see. You must be a supreme super being to have NEVER felt fatigued. Man, how do YOU do it? So you can wake up at 2 in the morning for a 3am show and pull a 14 hour duty day and feel great??? And then do it all over again and again and let me guess, feel great with not an ounce of being a little bit fatigued? Whats the secret there? Must be those flinstone vitamins! AMAZING!