NJ question

[illinipilot]

Don't count it as even a "theoretical possibility". Existing SIC's will want the increased pay and the "Falcon lifestyle" as they await for an upgrade that is now running 5.5 years and forecast to go up.

Not a super big deal but we ought to post accurate info. It actually looks like the upgrades are currently running just about 2 1/2 years. I will concede that those estimates look like they will go a lot longer pretty soon.

Cheers.

 

[hawk2wp]

It actually looks like the upgrades are currently running just about 2 1/2 years. I will concede that those estimates look like they will go a lot longer pretty soon.

What is the reason for the increase in time to upgrade?

 

[Guitar Guy]

Not a super big deal but we ought to post accurate info. It actually looks like the upgrades are currently running just about 2 1/2 years. I will concede that those estimates look like they will go a lot longer pretty soon.

Cheers.

That "5.5 years to upgrade" figure came straight from the MEC chairman at an IBB presentation just a few weeks ago. He also made the comment that he believed that the time to upgrade is going to increase some.

I know that some of the people upgrading now have been here at about the mark you mention however for someone getting hired right now or for someone hired within the past year or so, it's not going to be a 2.5-year upgrade. I believe DC's comment are about right on target. No one getting hired in the near future should come in with any illusion of upgrading in 30 months.

 

[Guitar Guy]

What is the reason for the increase in time to upgrade?

A lot of hiring is going on that is outpacing upgrades. Also, few of the senior guys are leaving. There was an interesting rumor that anywhere from 100 to 300 guys (depending on who you heard the rumor from) were going to leave after the last round of bonus payouts earlier this year for the 2005 contract but that hasn't materialized.

The company also shut down two fleets within the past year: the Hawker 1000 and the Citation VII. The PIC's took captain slots in other fleets and I believe most, if not all, of the SIC's in the retired fleets also moved to the left seat during the fleet reduction process. So that added some to the slowness of upgrades.

The company is supposed to have net growth of about 60 airframes in 2008 and 2009, so that should help. But it will still be a fairly long wait to upgrade for anyone getting hired in the near future. It won't be a 30-month upgrade.

 

[av8tor4239]

I will still make more money as a nj newhire than a 6 year captain at my current regional ASA *based on both companies new TA

 

[illinipilot]

Guitar Guy,

Dude, I totally agree with you that upgrades for those hired now are going to run a lot longer. To say that they are currently running at 5.5 years, though, is inaccurate.

No harm meant,
IP

 

[illinipilot]

BTW, I am totally frustrated with the amount of training slots at flightsafety. Currently this, I believe, is the biggest hinderance (sp?) to our growth as well as upgrades.

 

[Going2Baja]

Anyone have the proposed hourly wages for newhires and the 1st 5 years?

Baja.

 

[RP170]

I will still make more money as a nj newhire than a 6 year captain at my current regional ASA *based on both companies new TA

I hear ya. Someone was trying to question me on the regionals board as to why I left RAH since I would have upgraded right about now and now have to sit in the right seat at NJA for possibly 5 years. Some guys just don't get it I guess. To each their own.

I'll make more as a first year FO than I would have as a 3 yr captain flying the E170 at RAH, assuming the IBB passes.

 

[NJApilot]

As far as the time-to-upgrade is concerned: if I were a new-hire today, I would "plan" for 4-5 years as an F/O. It obviously may turn out to be less than this amount of time...and if so, great. But the general belief is that the upgrade time will lengthen (as it has over the last 18 months). Retirements and additional airframes to the overall fleet (both of which are fluid factors here at NJA) will play important roles.

One other important thing to keep in mind, too, is that if the TA passes, I would expect to see a number of current captains transitioning to other, more junior fleets in order to gain relative seniority for schedule and vacation bidding purposes. As many know, the TA, while improving F/O pay dramtically, also eliminates the higher pay for most of the larger aircraft (ie, the "aircraft class" pay structure). Those fleets where the MTOW is less than 40,000 LBS (90+% of our planes maybe?) will all pay the same -- and some of the current captains in these fleets will probably consider bidding to a smaller aircraft (improving their relative seniority) since the pay will be the same. There may come a point where the Sovereign, X, Hawker and G200 fleets become the junior captain equipment (rather than the 560, XL and 400XP).

On the flip-side, those transitioning captains will also be "vacating" a captain seat in their original fleets...so over time, in theory anyway, it may not have that big of an impact long-term if the company stays on top of keeping the fleets sufficently staffed. But you can expect, in the short-run, to see a lot of the initial captain bids go to existing captains.

The F/Os may not be too happy about this, but at least the F/O wage in the TA is livable.

 

[NJApilot]

Anyone have the proposed hourly wages for newhires and the 1st 5 years?

Baja.

NJA pay is based on yearly salary, not hourly wages. See the previous posts in this thread for the proposed wage scales.

 

[Guitar Guy]

Guitar Guy,

Dude, I totally agree with you that upgrades for those hired now are going to run a lot longer. To say that they are currently running at 5.5 years, though, is inaccurate.

No harm meant,
IP

I thought we probably agreed on the new-hires facing a longer wait. The number I put in my response was meant for the guys who are considering working for NetJets to give them something to use for planning. Trust me, I hope that new-hires upgrade sooner than 5.5 years.

As for what upgrades are currently running, that's a moving target. Last fall, people were pointing out that the Excel was running 2.5 years to hold as a PIC. Currently, I've got over 3 years with NetJets and I can't hold XL at this time. So would it be correct to say that, right now, the XL is "running 2.5 years" because the last guy to get the XL had that amount of time with the company when he got the bid award? That's what I mean about upgrade being a moving target.

Like I said earlier, I hope upgrade arrives quickly for everyone. If you haven't upgraded yet, here's hoping you don't have wait too much longer.
:beer:

 

[CA1900]

Last fall, people were pointing out that the Excel was running 2.5 years to hold as a PIC. Currently, I've got over 3 years with NetJets and I can't hold XL at this time.

Should the TA pass, the extra $3600/year to fly the XL and XLS will go away. It'll be interesting to see what that does to the seniority on that airplane...

 

[Guitar Guy]

Should the TA pass, the extra $3600/year to fly the XL and XLS will go away. It'll be interesting to see what that does to the seniority on that airplane...

I think that will likely happen to some degree. But I think an even bigger driver among most fleets will probably be QOL things like having good relative seniority for bidding schedules, vacations and PTO days.

So if there's a lot of fleet changing among PIC's and it gets combined with the shortage of sim slots at the training centers, it might unfortunately cause a slowdown for people looking for their first upgrades. But the upside might be that some fleets go a little more junior. Maybe the X will end up a plane for younger guys, for example.

 

[imacdog]

Should the TA pass, the extra $3600/year to fly the XL and XLS will go away. It'll be interesting to see what that does to the seniority on that airplane...

It will be interesting for sure, though even if you don't include the extra pay, it's not a bad plane to fly. It has a nice combination of short legs and decent room inside the cabin. It makes up for those qualities with the movable stabilizer. Personally I'm very interested in the XLS+ coming out - the Collins and new cockpit layout should make it a prett sweet ride.

 

[jtf]

One more thing that may make upgrade times run longer is the amount of pilots who choose to take the new 18 day schedule if IBB passes. If it goes to a full 40 percent, then we will possibly (depending on the schedulers ability) have more productivity from the pilots and require a slightly slower hiring process. This is one reason the company wanted the IBB in the first place- to try for more productivity. I have some doubts as to how productive and efficient scheduling can ever be, but they may actually do a little better than they are now and that really will slow things a bit. At least FO wages should end up adequate for the wait.

 

[Guitar Guy]

I think you've got salient points there, jtf. I think it will take good (or great) line-building from scheduling to keep people on the 18-day schedule voluntarily. A fully computerized bid system isn't required for 2 years, if I recall correctly, so it's going to be a rather arduous manual process even with union oversight. If people bid to get certain days off or certain line styles (long tours or short tours) and don't get them, the company will have a hard time attracting people to the 18-day schedule.

By the way, the company is only offering about a 3% pay incentive for the 18-day schedule once you account for the extra days worked on the 18-day vs. the 7/7.

 

[lookin4better]

Does anyone know if NJ contacts current employer before they interview you?

 

[jtf]

I don't think they contacted mine until I was hired, but I didn't really care if they did- everyone was (as still is) trying to escape the crappy airline I was at and they expected people to look elsewhere.