NJ A/C Choice

[flagshipper]

Constantly asked question with a different spin on it. Which NJ A/C should newhires choose to have the best relative seniority? Skeds, vacations and such are bid on by seniority so you would be better served to pick a fleet where you would move up the quickest. Am I understanding this correctly? So you would better off going into a growing fleet like the Encore+ instead of a stagnant or depleting fleet like the Ultra? I am not sure how many FOs are swapping fleets and such. At CS it is weird. Our Bravo FO force is much more senior on average than our XLS FO group

 

[Dr Pepper]

That sounds reasonable, pick one of the growing fleets or one of the large fleets.
More FOs will be moving around as the upgrade forcasts expand.

 

[RJ Bum]

Makes sense to me if you have that flexibility. I'm on the 800XP Honeywell and the fleet is very stagnant. Been here close to a year and only have 2 guys underneath me. No one is leaving it so they don't have to hire into it. So bidding is a bit of a chore.

 

[flagshipper]

Is that Hawker a little roomier than the Beechjet or Ultra/Encore? (if you have ever sat in them)

 

[learflyer]

yes it is. Not to mention a microwave oven, and an apu as well.

 

[CA1900]

The 800 is a lot roomier than either of those.

 

[Guitar Guy]

Which NJ A/C should newhires choose to have the best relative seniority? Skeds, vacations and such are bid on by seniority so you would be better served to pick a fleet where you would move up the quickest. Am I understanding this correctly?

I think the more larger (sometimes called "more desirable") fleets will start to get filled by SIC's bidding to a second plane after their initial seat lock is up. So while a new-hire may still get offered something like a G200 or Sovereign, I think more and more of the SIC slots in the larger planes will get filled by existing SIC's coming off of seatlock, thereby keeping a new-hire quite low on that plane's SIC seniority list. A small but growing fleet in something like the Encore+ might be the best road to quicker relative seniority growth for an SIC.

An interesting choice, however, might be a dieing fleet like the Ultra. Once that fleet is basically gone, there will be a displacement bid for the remaining Ultra pilots. When that happens, someone could pick (within limits) a new fleet and by the time happens, have a better read on which fleet that person wants to be in. Plus, you wouldn't pick up a new seatlock if you end up in a new fleet as a result of a displacement bid.

And you are correct in your other question about seniority in fleet/seat being the basis for bidding schedules and vacations. Stated another way, an XL SIC only bids against other XL SIC's for vacation and schedule options.

 

[notaNJApilot]

Something else to consider is that you do not incur a seat lock when upgrading in-type. Choosing an aircraft like the Ultra, Encore, Hawker 400, etc as a First Officer will put you in the best position to upgrade without a seat lock. Being a FO in the G200, for example, will not provide you the same benefit since it is a much more senior fleet.

 

[Guitar Guy]

I can't imagine how long it would take a new-hire to hold G200 PIC. That would be a very long wait.

 

[rydog]

I think the more larger (sometimes called "more desirable") fleets will start to get filled by SIC's bidding to a second plane after their initial seat lock is up. So while a new-hire may still get offered something like a G200 or Sovereign, I think more and more of the SIC slots in the larger planes will get filled by existing SIC's coming off of seatlock, thereby keeping a new-hire quite low on that plane's SIC seniority list. A small but growing fleet in something like the Encore+ might be the best road to quicker relative seniority growth for an SIC.

An interesting choice, however, might be a dieing fleet like the Ultra. Once that fleet is basically gone, there will be a displacement bid for the remaining Ultra pilots. When that happens, someone could pick (within limits) a new fleet and by the time happens, have a better read on which fleet that person wants to be in. Plus, you wouldn't pick up a new seatlock if you end up in a new fleet as a result of a displacement bid.

And you are correct in your other question about seniority in fleet/seat being the basis for bidding schedules and vacations. Stated another way, an XL SIC only bids against other XL SIC's for vacation and schedule options.

Thats good news for me. I just had the option of the X or the Ultra and picked the Ultra hoping to displace off it.

Does any one know how many Ultras are being dumped per month?

 

[RTRHD]

Thats good news for me. I just had the option of the X or the Ultra and picked the Ultra hoping to displace off it.

Does any one know how many Ultras are being dumped per month?

Would you not just go to the newer Citation 500 what whatever it is called? Encore is it?

 

[Dr Pepper]

Would you not just go to the newer Citation 500 what whatever it is called? Encore is it?

No, the Ultra, Encore and Encore plus are all considered different fleets.

 

[Dr Pepper]

I can't imagine how long it would take a new-hire to hold G200 PIC. That would be a very long wait.

As the bidding carousel goes around, I would not be surprised to see upgrades into the X or the Soveriegn. I say that because of the work pace and pay rates. I know a few senior guys that are looking to get out of the X. The incentive left the room in Dec 07 for PICs to work until their bum is stuck to the seat and leaning to the right.

 

[flyguy81]

what fleet works lots and is roomy for 6'3" people?

 

[Guitar Guy]

You want roomy AND busy? It would be easier if you would pick one or the other.

The X and the XL/XLS have the rep as the busiest fleet but they aren't exactly the roomiest cockpits. The Sovereign is catching up but probably isn't super-roomy.

The good news is that if you get an interview, they will try to show you at least a few planes so you can "try them on", so to speak.

 

[flagshipper]

So another question. Which fleets are growing and which are shrinking? 680, Encore+, X are growing I suspect while the Ultra, Beechjet are shrinking?

 

[Jafo73]

So another question. Which fleets are growing and which are shrinking? 680, Encore+, X are growing I suspect while the Ultra, Beechjet are shrinking?

X, Beechjet, and Encore are stagnant. 680, XLS+, and Encore+ are growing. Don't know about the rest of the fleet

 

[Fozzy]

XLS+ is not here yet so it is not growing or doing anything. I don't even recall a bid for that fleet yet. My guess is late summer for the XLS+.
IMHO, the roomiest cockpit in a Citation would be the XL/XLS. The X and Sov is just stuffed with a lot more equipment.
As a side note, Citation has possibly the worst cockpit seats available. Absolutely suck. I believe they are made by the same folks that make the cabin seats for the RJ. The XL seats are worse than the Ultra! YOU hear me Cessna, you build a crap cockpit!:angryfire

As for the G200/Falcon I don't see many new hires getting a chance there as they seem to be going to FO's already on the property.
I don't see the Ultra fleet being completely gone for another 2 years.
I will edit when I get solid info on that.

 

[fischman]

Here's the latest stats I have on the Ultra. As of last month, we still operated 60. We are losing about 9/ year. They are not anticipating having to do displacements for another 3 years due to people bidding off of it. Fleet should be totally off line in less than 6 years. TCAS should be installed in every ship by the end of 2008.


Disclaimer: This is what I HEARD. These are not hard numbers. This can change.

 

[tk855]

X, Beechjet, and Encore are stagnant. 680, XLS+, and Encore+ are growing. Don't know about the rest of the fleet

Don't forget the G200 and the 800XPC/900, both of those fleets are growing considerably. Summary: Encore+, 680, G200, and 800/900XPC are all expanding fleets.