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news media attacking GA again

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Dubya said:
I didn't separate 135 from GA....but I think this thread is more directed at the light aircraft...not chartered Gulfstream and Lear's. Besides...i'll go out on a limb and state that the security surrounding those type of planes is a bit tighter.

W

A 135 op is inherently more secure than GA. The majority of passengers flying charter are either known to the pilot or to a "lead" passenger. This fact simply makes it more secure than some random GA pilot who has a death wish or the airlines where any crazed terrorist may be lurking.
 
Any form of working TSA type of organization won't stop a crazed pilot from smashing an aircraft into a building. You try to weed out the crazed pilots out at the flight instruction/medical phase. It's the same problem with an airline pilot, they have every oppertunity in the world to smash their airliner into a building and realistically you can't stop them. Passengers on board a 91 or 135 flight aren't a threat due to the pilots (or the pilot's bosses) already have 'cleared' the passengers onboard the aircraft and not found them a security threat.

The real danger from people on the ramp comes from John Doe walking up to a Leer that isn't properly secured, hotwireing the aircraft, and then smacking it into a building (or placing a bomb on the aircraft, which isn't a very useful terrorist objective). This is why part 135 operators are more vulnerable, because they go faster, go farther and can carry more payload (and thus are higher value targets).

Security on transient 135 aircraft is decent, but not any better than aircraft that the local FBO owns. Actually worse because the locals won't know who is authorized to be around it.

I would love to see the FAA run a few tests to see if they could 'steal' an aircraft at various airports. Have 2 pilots just walk through the FBO with pilot type uniforms and start to preflight a random aircraft and then sit in the cockpit for 5 minutes.
 
I seem to remember some guy crashing his Cessna into the White House a few years ago. Nobody really freaked out about that. The fact is, a kamakazi attack with a light aircraft against say, a nuclear plant, is like tossing a ball of aluminum foil against a brick wall. Certain death for the occupant of course, but not very effective against any target more substantial than a circus tent. Small aircraft don't even blow up very well (although someone sitting in it at the time might disagree).
 
CatYaaak
I seem to remember some guy crashing his Cessna into the White House a few years ago. Nobody really freaked out about that. The fact is, a kamakazi attack with a light aircraft against say, a nuclear plant, is like tossing a ball of aluminum foil against a brick wall. Certain death for the occupant of course, but not very effective against any target more substantial than a circus tent. Small aircraft don't even blow up very well (although someone sitting in it at the time might disagree).

He crashed his Cessna on the White House lawn. It sounds like he barely clipped the White House. Only two instances of a small aircraft hitting a building head on were post 9/11 (I know of a few little aircraft having midairs and falling into buildings in Chicago but that doesn't really count in terms of terrorism).

The kid that suicided the C152/warrior into a florida building right after 9/11 did nearly no damage to the building. He took out a corner office, and didn't kill anyone in the building.

The guy who accidently smacked his beechcraft into the building in Europe in mid 2002 did a decent amount of damage but nothing really threatening to the building (the media paniced after this one because he killed a dozen people both inside and out of the building and he hit the building really hard). He hit at something like 150kts-250kts instead of the 100kts that the cessna hit at. Plus it was a little heavier, more aerodynamic (cuts into the building more) and is more structurally stable aircraft (holds together better). I think it turned out to be someone scudrunning in IFR and got a little too low.
 
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If somebody really wants to steal a light aircraft then more power to them. I understand security has been ramped up here in recent years but you really can't expect to stop anybody anywhere considering all the GA airports out there. Most big general aviation airports out there are ghost towns at night. All we can do is try to watch for anything suspicous then act accordingly. I seriously doubt anything else will work. The media will be the media always looking for a good story. The only problem is that they don't know anything better then to stir up the pot as they have with this thread.
 
The amount of physical damage is inconsequential; it's irrelevant. The issue is psychological damage, and the fact that a terrorist is able to do it, weather he or she succeeds in causing damage, irn't material. That's what the public is interested in. The fact that the terorrist manages to take the airplane and do something with it, is cause enough to shut down aviation as we know it. If your'e memory is too short, it just barely happened, a couple of years ago. REMEMBER??

Avbug...you give examples of things to improve security...then you backtrack and say that maybe they aren't the way to go and that you aren't advocating restricting our freedom. So what are you saying exactly?

I did NOT backtrack. I stated a few random examples of things that can be done with little or no change to our lifestyle, at little or no cost; thousands more possibilities exist. I then went on to state that any of my suggestions may or may not be valid or appropriate, but as examples, they demonstrate that the field is wide open for improving security. Essentially now, we have none. My statement is consistant throughout, and does not waver.

A 135 op is inherently more secure than GA. The majority of passengers flying charter are either known to the pilot or to a "lead" passenger. This fact simply makes it more secure than some random GA pilot who has a death wish or the airlines where any crazed terrorist may be lurking.

Garbage. Seldom when I have flown 135 have passengers been known to me. Some were repeat customers, but in many cases, individuals of whom I had no knowledge were on board. On several occasions during charter flights in turbojet airplanes, I have had passengers produce firearms that were unknown to me at the time of departure. In one case, the passenger began racking the slide of an automatic pistol right behind my head, in a Learjet. We were carrying him to the destination to appear in federal court. He asked if we thought he ought to leave the pistol on board while he appeared in court.

On another occasion, the passenger tripped while walking out to the airplane, and a handgun fell out of his jacket onto the ramp. he had been informed that this was not permitted. No security or screening was in place; many such people charter because they can do things on a charter flight that they cannot do on an airline flight, and they can do it in privacy.

On another occasion, after returning from an international leg, upon entering customs in the US, the passenger confessed he had a firearm on board. Then another passenger did the same. It was news to me. I will not go into that story, but it's one of the most bizarre I've yet encountered, which is also exactly what two agents attending the subsequent interrogation said. One, who had done 25 years of work in Miami and who thought he had seen everything, commented that it was the most "**CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ing" bizarre thing he had ever heard.

Point of fact; any one of those passengers could have put a bullet in the back of my head...and don't you think a terrorist is willing to spend a few dollars from a relatively unlimited fund, to get that access and security? Think about it. Don't be naive.

Charter is just, if not more vulnerable than any other segment of aviation.

If you think it can't happen, whitness what happened to the ag industry following september 11. The damage was staggering, not only to ag pilots and operators, bu to farmers, and ultimately consumers. Unlike most airplanes, an ag aircraft isn't something that a trained private pilot can simply jump in and go fly. Of any potential threat, it was the most absurd...but the public paranoia that followed ag operators all over the country had the FBI forcing operators to remove their propellers, to blocade hangar doors, to cause police to meet ag pilots while they returned to load following dispensing of a common, lawful chemical.

Think it can't happen again, and happen to you? Think again.
 
I agree with Avbug that it is probably a matter of time till we see more stringent rules for all of GA. Anybody that makes thier living with a small airplane should be very involved with this. Even if you don't agree with the recomendations for security, we all need to be perceived by the public as taking steps to secure our airports, airplanes, etc. I seriously doubt that any terrorist woulc have much of a chance to get my aiplane in the air much less make it to someplace that he could harm anything. Even so, we still keep everything secured now at all times. After what happened with our shutdown after 911, you never know when you are going to get the plug pulled on your livelyhood. That kneejerk response was driven completely by public perceptions fueled by sensationlism from the news media. I'm still afraid to use my smoker anywhere near a major highway for fear of some uninformed passerby thinking that I have released some WMD. What gets to me most are the recreational general aviation pilots who continue to bust into TFR's such as the one around Crawford Tx. Everytime GW is home, some fools will wander into the restricted area. These guys are only giving the media and others amunition against all of general aviation. If you can't stay out of that area, you deserve to have you license pulled for good. We can either all pull together and help with security and follow the rules that we have, or we will strapped with much much more stringent ones in the near future.
 
avbug said:
The field is wide open for improving security. It's so full of holes right now that lack of security is the watch word...anything resembling security is the hole, presently. Sort of like putting a narrow strip of fence in the middle of a cow pasture and hoping the cows will stay put. That's the existing security. We need a bigger fence that's more visible, better known to all, and we need the input of the industry to do it. Otherwise, we're all going to suffer.
The measures you propose could by no means produce an impenetrable blanket of security. How could we possibly track down every private aircraft on every private grass strip and insist that every pilot pass through screening, or file a flight plan, or use a prop lock? Impossible. So maybe we get 98% and that makes everyone feel safer. Would we be? I think not. But once we feel safer, we allow our guard to drop, and then it's all that easier for the remaining 2% to slip in and do the damage.

It's much like the farce we call TSA security today. We've erected barriers to efficient flow of traffic in the name of safer skies. Passengers who were afraid to fly now feel quite safe - - simply because they get hassled. Are they any safer? I think not.

No amount of hassling, no thickness of barriers, no bureaucratic system of checking databases of numbers and photographs will ever be as effective as vigilance.


(By the way, I think it's quite remarkable that you even predicted the aircraft TYPE for 9/11.)
 
Down with ultralights!

Can you imagine the public outrage? You could potentially scatter dangerous chemical weapons with alarming accuracy with an ultralight and a spray bottle!

I'm off to dig my bomb...err uh...chemical...errr uh..nuclear fallout shelter.

The terrorists have already beaten some of us.

W:rolleyes:
 
pilotman2105 said:
A 135 op is inherently more secure than GA. The majority of passengers flying charter are either known to the pilot or to a "lead" passenger. This fact simply makes it more secure than some random GA pilot who has a death wish or the airlines where any crazed terrorist may be lurking.

I don't know if I'd say 135 is more secure than GA. I can tell you, every time I've taken off with a passenger, I've known the person. Using a "135 is inherently more secure" because the passengers are known to the pilot or a passenger works for little planes as well.
 
The measures you propose could by no means produce an impenetrable blanket of security.

Nor did I ever remotely suggest such a thing, in any way, shape, or form. I stated exactly the contrary; anything is a step in the right direction, and there are literally thousands of ways that security can be improved...presently there is none.

(By the way, I think it's quite remarkable that you even predicted the aircraft TYPE for 9/11.)

I didn't "predict" jack. It was inevitable. If I were a terrorist, I would have used an aircraft such as a 757 or 767 to strike one of the most obvious and distinctive targets I could. The WTC was it. Then again, so was the Pentagon. That's not a prediction; it was an obvious choice, and it was all but inevitable.

I'll go you one further. Frequently when flying, or jumpseating, I carried five blades or more with me, all legal to pass through security. A small folder, a leatherman, a swiss army knife, and the ever present spyderco cricket. (which TSA ironically confiscated, last year). I frequently questioned the efficacy of allowing blades through security.

I was always told that nobody could do damage with a short blade. What a silly notion, I was told. I noted that a pencil will do the same damage as a handgun if you know how to use it. My assertion was then, and was borne true, that short blades make ideal weapons in a rapid tactical takedown...and they do.

I've said it since. You're probably one of the brightsparks that feels a takedown can't happen today, because the passengers will heroically rise up and defend, that doors are inpenetrable. What a stupid, naive notion, but a commonly held one all the same. A ribbon charge stored in a shoe will surgically remove the door, neater than cheese. One or two others using the fatal funnel concept can hold the aircraft while the door is being blown...the design of the interior of all airplanes makes this possible. And blades still work wonders...cut the first few wide, and the others slip in the blood, recoil at the sight, and the bodies pile in the funnel to form a defensive barrier.

I said that blades were a threat before, and they are now. Metal doesn't pass security well, but carbon fiber does. A credit card will work, too. The threat is still there. That's no prediction. That's stating the obvious. I didn't predict 09/11. It was **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ed obvious. If it wasn't obvious to you, it's not lack of predictability; it's naivete and blindness.

Then again, six months before we ever thought of 09/11 and Afghanistan, I could clearly see that we were preparing for war there. And I said as much. When we began to villify the Taliban and begin to work the public up against the Afghanis in the media in the months preceeding 09/11, it was obvious. Only because we set it up...but it was obvious that the public was being primed for it. A blind man could see that.

OH, and after we ground the GA fleet, we should go after the REAL threat - - Experimentals ! !

Probably goes without saying, but experiemental aircraft are part of general avaition.

The terrorists have already beaten some of us.

Speak for yourself.
 
Oh, please...

Then again, six months before we ever thought of 09/11 and Afghanistan, I could clearly see that we were preparing for war there. And I said as much. When we began to villify the Taliban and begin to work the public up against the Afghanis in the media in the months preceeding 09/11, it was obvious. Only because we set it up...but it was obvious that the public was being primed for it. A blind man could see that.

BULL **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**, Avbug.

Show me a link to your post from before 9-11 indicating we were preparing to attack Afghanistan.

"Only because we set it up." Uh, what do you mean? We set up the Afghanis, or set up 9-11? Both concepts are equally ludicrous.

Knowledgeable about aviation you are.

Sanctimonious and condescending as well..did you forget how to act humble and forgiving during your "four years of seminary" that you say you did?

Off topic, yes, but I had to rebut your obvious hot air expulsion.

I must, at least, acknowledge a couple of things.

Yes, our aviation security system is far from complete. Are we safer? A little bit. No, we are not immune from another attack. In that much we agree.

But not much more.:(
 
avbug
Then again, six months before we ever thought of 09/11 and Afghanistan, I could clearly see that we were preparing for war there. And I said as much. When we began to villify the Taliban and begin to work the public up against the Afghanis in the media in the months preceeding 09/11, it was obvious. Only because we set it up...but it was obvious that the public was being primed for it. A blind man could see that.

Are you suggesting that the US goverment set up 9/11?

avbug
I was always told that nobody could do damage with a short blade. What a silly notion, I was told. I noted that a pencil will do the same damage as a handgun if you know how to use it. My assertion was then, and was borne true, that short blades make ideal weapons in a rapid tactical takedown...and they do.

I've said it since. You're probably one of the brightsparks that feels a takedown can't happen today, because the passengers will heroically rise up and defend, that doors are inpenetrable. What a stupid, naive notion, but a commonly held one all the same. A ribbon charge stored in a shoe will surgically remove the door, neater than cheese. One or two others using the fatal funnel concept can hold the aircraft while the door is being blown...the design of the interior of all airplanes makes this possible. And blades still work wonders...cut the first few wide, and the others slip in the blood, recoil at the sight, and the bodies pile in the funnel to form a defensive barrier.

I said that blades were a threat before, and they are now. Metal doesn't pass security well, but carbon fiber does. A credit card will work, too. The threat is still there. That's no prediction. That's stating the obvious. I didn't predict 09/11. It was **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**ed
obvious. If it wasn't obvious to you, it's not lack of predictability; it's naivete and blindness

First, any fixed defense can be defeated. Thinking that the doors will do anything except slow down hijackers is wishful thinking. This doesn't mean that they aren't a form of protection.

But, any defence by the terrorists is doomed to failure. The reason is because they won't have the weapons to overcome the superior numbers that the passengers can assemble. Remember, the passengers are going to overrun the defences with wave attacks. People only fall down and die when stabbed in the movies.

I have seen a mob attack a chain link fence that was buried 3 ft into concrete and overrun it like it was a piece of paper. The people in front were crushed but the concept still applies, the passengers can take deaths at 5:1 or greater and still win.

This is in addition that every second that the pilots can stall the terrorists is another one that the passengers can counterattack. Plus, if the terrorists are attacking the pilots, they still have to fight the passengers and thus have to split their forces. Any hijacking will be over in under 5 minutes and the outcome will be decided within the first minute.
 
Originally posted by avbug 04-28-2004 19:25CDT
Originally posted by TonyC
(By the way, I think it's quite remarkable that you even predicted the aircraft TYPE for 9/11.)
I didn't "predict" jack. It was inevitable. If I were a terrorist, I would have used an aircraft such as a 757 or 767 to strike one of the most obvious and distinctive targets I could. The WTC was it. Then again, so was the Pentagon. That's not a prediction; it was an obvious choice, and it was all but inevitable.
Originally posted by avbug 04-25-2004 19:06CDT
Then again, so many said the same when I expressed my belief that eventually a 757 would be used to strike the WTC.
Wiggle between "expressed my belief that" and "predicted" if you like, but you'll only make yourself look silly.



Originally posted by avbug
Frequently when flying, or jumpseating, I carried five blades or more with me, ... I frequently questioned the efficacy of allowing blades through security.
If you used the word efficacy like you used it just now, you made yourself look silly then, too. Efficacy means "the power to produce an effect." Now, you might have thought to yourself, I really sound smart using fancy words. But in reality, you just made yourself look like a - - what's that word you use?? - - brightspark - - for using a word for which you didn't know the meaning. (HINT: Try "wisdom" next time. ;) )



Originally posted by avbug
You're probably one of the brightsparks that feels a takedown can't happen today, because the passengers will heroically rise up and defend, that doors are inpenetrable. What a stupid, naive notion, but a commonly held one all the same.
See, there's that brightspark again. :) I feel better knowing I'm just "probably" one, though. ;) Actually, I don't think that at all. In fact, I would be silly to rely on passengers - - since I carry none - - and I think the door is a farce. I would prefer that people NOT be lulled into a FALSE SENSE OF SECURITY that any of the measures now in place, or any measure we could possibly conceive, can make us absolutely secure. The more secure these false measures make us feel, the less vigilant we will become. And the only defense we can absolutely rely on is vigilance.

That's why I'm opposed to any across-the-board restrictions that would unnecessarily encumber general aviation while not adding a scintilla of actual protection. Make it more cumbersome, and many people will think we're safer, and they'll let down their guards.



Originally posted by avbug
The terrorists have already beaten some of us.
Speak for yourself.
If you don't mind, please don't mix my quotes with the quotes of others (this one wasn't mine). Not that I necessarily disagree with this one, but there's a principle involved. Thanks.
 

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