New to GPS approaches; where's the MAP for this one?

[JimNtexas]

Would you believe I still don't know when to execute the missed approach?

If you are using a GPS that doesn't give vertical guidence then miss at RW3, if you have something like a Garmin 480 that has vertical guidence then miss at the decision altitude of 1320 feet.

 

[Snakum]

Thanks!


Minh

 

[acaTerry]

Just be careful how far you trust that GPS. I know of several people who recieved violations by "blind trust" of the GPS navigation (such as Class B mapping, etc).
GPS is great, but still no replacement for good ole' piloting skills and proper SA. This is one of the reasons the FAA does not authorize stand-alone GPS operation.

 

[Snakum]

Just be careful how far you trust that GPS. I know of several people who recieved violations by "blind trust" of the GPS navigation (such as Class B mapping, etc).

I'm afraid I've been guilty of that one, myself, as far as airspace boundaries - which is one of the few things I used GPS for until recently. I have probably been WAY too trusting, in that respect.


Minh

 

[semperfido]

This is one of the reasons the FAA does not authorize stand-alone GPS operation.

what do you mean stand-alone gps operations? please clarify.

 

[PC12Cowboy]

acaterry,
hmm it would be time to wakey and smell the coffee.....as I have shot many stand alone approaches ...GPS...as the plane I fly doesnt have an ADF....and YES THEY ARE AUTHORIZED....and condoned

 

[wheelsup]

acaterry,
hmm it would be time to wakey and smell the coffee.....as I have shot many stand alone approaches ...GPS...as the plane I fly doesnt have an ADF....and YES THEY ARE AUTHORIZED....and condoned

I *think* what terry is saying is you CANNOT simply have a GPS installed in your aircraft and use that EXCLUSIVELY for navigation. You must have another backup receiver (VOR/ADF) installed in the airplane.

Ref: AIM 1-1-19 (d) (1) (b):

Aircraft using GPS navigation equipment under IFR must be equipped with an approved and operational alternate means of navigation appropriate to the flight. Active monitoring of alternative navigation equipment is not required if the GPS receiver uses RAIM for integrity monitoring. Active monitoring of an alternate means of navigation is required when the RAIM capability of the GPS equipment is lost.

~wheelsup

 

[JimNtexas]

I'm pretty sure that the Garmin 480 is authorized for sole-source navigation.

Certainly if an ADF can be used as a sole navigation source, it's not wild and crazy to trust a gps.

ETA: I think the AIM may not be totally up to date on this point, I'll look into it.

 

[acaTerry]

I *think* what terry is saying is you CANNOT simply have a GPS installed in your aircraft and use that EXCLUSIVELY for navigation. You must have another backup receiver (VOR/ADF) installed in the airplane.

Ref: AIM 1-1-19 (d) (1) (b):




~wheelsup

That's what I meant in my own little incomplete way of saying it. .
..seen too many a pilot violated over Class B mapping on the GPS in PHX...

 

[soarby007]

Back to the question of when to do the missed approach.

Anytime you want to and no later than the RW03. If you pay attention to the distance on the GPS you can determine if you realistically can meet landing visibility requirements and may as well go missed then, certainly no later than RW03. For training purposes and check ride purposes, they probably are looking for RW03, just as if it was one of the other approaches at this airport where the end of the runway is the MAP. Don't get confused here. It's just another navigation aid, doesn't change the rules.

 

[ERAUGrad04]

I am a CFII and at the school I teach at, we have recently become very GPS oriented. We use all King 94's GPS units in our Cessna's, so we are not approved to do the LPV/LNAV thing, but I am quite familair with Precision GPS approaches. Now, if i am reading the majority of these posts right, most people are saying that the missed approach point is RW03. That is partially correct. The ONLY time that RW03 would be used as the missed approach point is on an LNAV only approach. If you are shooting the approach with LNAV/VNAV, both the RW03 and the VDP have practically no meaning to the approach. The VDP is calculated based on an MDA. If we are shooting this aproach with DA minimums, throw the VDP out the window. If you look off to the left of the aprroach, it states the that the glideslope angle is 3.00 degrees. And last time I calculated a VDP, it was figured at 3 degrees. Also notice that AFTER the VDP the solid line continues for a short while before turning to a dotted line(dotted line indicating missed approach). For practial purposes, this approach should be treated similarly to an ILS...go missed upon arrival at the decision altitude(1320) while on the glideslope.
Hope this helps.

ERAUGrad04

 

[semperfido]

i think i said that many posts ago

 

[ERAUGrad04]

I knew that i saw it somewhere in here....just most people were saying RW03 was the map.

 

[semperfido]

good explanation

 

[wheelsup]

I knew that i saw it somewhere in here....just most people were saying RW03 was the map.

With snakum's equipment, it is in fact the MAP. I think that's why you're seeing it .

What's the upgrade to the seminole these days?

~wheelsup

 

[ERAUGrad04]

Not sure...i dont instruct for riddle...i think that it is about a year over there. Where i work i started right off in the seminole.

 

[JimNtexas]

i think i said that many posts ago

So did I. And as long as we're being redundant, even on an approach with vertical guidence you must overfly RW3, even though you miss at the DH. As someone pointed out, RW3 is an overfly waypoint.

 

[Flylo]

Good Grief!!

I just read this whole thread but had to stop half way through to pour some cold water on my head so my poor little brain wouldn't burst into flame.

I'm learning instrument flying in an old Mooney and it doesn't have a GPS. But I guess, if I ever do get this confused about a procedure, I'll just go to the alternate.

.

 

[Snakum]

I just read this whole thread but had to stop half way through to pour some cold water on my head so my poor little brain wouldn't burst into flame.

That's nothing. Halfway thru I had to dunk my whole head into a stainless steel vat of liquid nitrogen.

It didn't help ...

... my noggin still melted and ran down my shoulders.


But I finally figured out that since I have no pseudo glideslope equipped/approved equipment (just a plain old 430) that I can drop to higher of the two minimums immediately after the last waypoint before the runway, glue one eyeball to the windshield and the other to the GPS screen, and as soon as RW03 starts flashing in the GPS I gotta haul my fat @ss to the first waypoint in the missed approach procedure if I don't have the runway environment in sight.

It took a while ... but even a blind squirrel will find a nut sooner or later.

'Squirrelly' Minh

 

[JimNtexas]

I'm pretty sure that the Garmin 480 is authorized for sole-source navigation.

Certainly if an ADF can be used as a sole navigation source, it's not wild and crazy to trust a gps.

ETA: I think the AIM may not be totally up to date on this point, I'll look into it.

I was correct about this at least for Alaska operations.

From the FAA:

Implementation of Instrument Flight Rules (IFR)
Area Navigation (RNAV) Operations
Using Global Positioning Systems (GPS) In Alaska
​

When. May 15, 2003
Type. Permanent
Purpose.
​

To enable, in Alaska, the use of Global Positioning System/Wide Area Augmentation Systems (GPS/WAAS) for IFR RNAV in lieu of ground-based navigation aids, including altitudes below current IFR Minimum Enroute Altitudes....
<snip>

Operations.
​

SFAR No. 97 allows the use of IFR-certified RNAV GPS/WAAS systems in lieu of ground facilities. This SFAR can be used for U.S. and foreign Part 91 operations, as well as Part 119 operations, Part 125 certificate holders, and Part 129 operations specifications holders, commercial, and certificated air carrier operators, in Alaska. The SFAR establishes training requirements for operators, including service degradation and equipment failure modes. It allows operators subject to this SFAR to operate over Air Traffic Service (ATS) routes where the MEA for a route or route segment is lower for GPS/WAAS IFR RNAV-equipped aircraft than the MEA for operators equipped only with ground-based navigation systems. This flexibility allows those GPS/WAAS IFR RNAV-equipped operators to conduct operations at the lowest permissible altitude in an attempt to avoid in-flight icing or other adverse weather conditions.

​

Required Equipment.
​

TSO C145a and TSO C146a GPS WAAS navigation systems are authorized to be used as the only means of navigation on Federal airways and other published ATS routes in lieu of ground-based navigation aids in Alaska. In the absence of a WAAS signal, these systems continue to provide navigation guidance using fault detection and exclusion (FDE) or receiver autonomous integrity monitoring (RAIM) techniques. Commercial operators are required to have dual TSO C145a or TSO C146a GPS WAAS navigation equipment, while Part 91 operations require at least one....

​

(emphasis added)

http://www.faa.gov/ntap/NTAP05MAR17/AH03004.HTM

I'm not 100% sure, but I think that the Garmin 480 is the only GPS in common use in general aviation that is certified to TSO C145a or C146a, unless the update to the Garmin 530 has become available.