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New Skywest vs the Old Skywest....

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120% Torque

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 17, 2002
Posts
277
I got asked the below question on another thread. For those seeking historical perspective to make your final choice regarding Sapa, Alpa, etc thought I would post here.

Originally Posted by SkyNation
umm, no.

a curiosity. do you work at SkyWest, or did you used to work here? in terms of QOL, overall pay, company health and prospects for growth, how do you rank SkyWest compared to our competitors? your exhaustive lists of complaints on numerous posts here indicates that you see SkyWest in a very bad light. referencing the items listed above, how do you think we compare to Comair, ASA, Mesa, AWAC, XJET? I have friends at all except Comair, and I know how they answer. I'd like your take to compare.

First let’s be clear, Skywest is not the same airline I hired on with a decade ago. I have watched year after year as management has reduced the benefits of this job while stacking large sums of money into the company coffers. They also paid $400,000,000.00 cash for another airline that they would later use to whipsaw against the pilots that helped raise this money in the first place. How’s that for thanks?! Skywest started out seemingly doing the right thing by its pilots a decade ago. We find ourself in a very different place today, especially the last six years.

If you go back and read most of what I have written here you will see the majority of my remarks are backed up with documents and facts. If someone lies and deserves to be crucified I usual do it with their own words. You see I tend to save things. I have a lot of the memo’s and promises doled out from management over the years including Sapa meeting minutes, quotes from Sapa reps, management promises, etc. Let me tell you something point blank in all soberness…..somewhere along the line the management of Skywest decided it was better for them personally to go another way from how they had previously gone in the past. At some point they decided it was ok to embellish the truth and sometimes flat out lie knowing full well they would later renege on their words. This process started slow but they do it now without hesitation, a straight face and no regret. There is no two ways about it, Skywest management has not been honest with this pilot group. It is born out again and again and this has caused much frustration among the ranks.

Now we have to ask what vehicle has management used to renege on these promises and who was ready and willing to be a part of this process? That vehicle was/is Sapa. I have watched this group, tried to work with this group and been deeply disappointed with this group for some time now. I know Jim B, Mike E, David L, Dave C, Dave A, etc personally. These are not men of high moral character. They are what they are and that is salesmen, opportunists and sell outs. I’ve watched several of these men jump from cushy job to cushy job within the ranks of Skywest, kissing butts along the way to secure what is best for THEMSELVES on a personal basis. They are like rats looking for a warm burrow to sleep in while the rest of the workers are hung out to dry. I do not have any respect for these men. I used to have respect for Mike E, but no longer. I felt bad for the guy when he had heart trouble and lost his medical, that is, until he became a management lackey handing out work rules that affected my daily life in a negative way and gave all the pilots the proverbial “bird” in doing so. I resent the fact that these men carelessly delivered management so many things that have negatively affected my families’ quality of life as well.

Some people who clearly are not in possession of the facts will say, “you knew what you were getting into when you hired on at Skywest, if you don’t like it now you can leave." I DID like the Skywest I hired on with (I am a happy person by nature) and it is NOT the same Skywest today! Frankly I am fed up with how the company has operated and what Sapa has done or undone as the case may be. Many others feel the same way. Even ardent Alpa critics have become frustrated with this downward spiral and the flippant attitude of Sapa and the company when these issues are brought to their attention. These pilots have seen the trust being broken a lot lately and there are new converts to Alpa every day. Then there’s the new guys, some who flew for Mesa and the like, who wanted to believe in the new religion of Skywest….it would take them to the aviation promised land. They don’t want to hear that this place could have some of the same problems of their last regional and yet even less protection to boot. Certainly they do not want to hear from the “old timers” stating the facts about what has happened here and would rather lash out in denial or plug their ears altogether hoping things will improve on their own. They thought for certain Jim Black was honest when he sold them on the evils of Alpa and the benevolence of Skywest management/sapa during basic training/endoc. Sadly they will find out the “new Skywest” is not what they used to read about on those message boards of old.

Regarding Alpa, I have said this many times before and probably will say it again, it is not the answer to all of lifes problems but when compared to Sapa it has a lot more horsepower to work with. It can produce much better accountability and has functions Sapa could never dream about implementing. It contains much better tools to build what should be the gold standard of regional airlines, especially considering how profitable Skywest continues to be post 911. For those not familiar, Skywest has benefited enormously from what happened to the industry after 911, yet they continuously preach financial gloom and doom almost every day and four times a day during pay negotiations. No matter how you slice it Alpa is most certainly better than what we have now. To be honest I don’t care if it does take three or five years to get a new contract. At least the sliding will stop and the upside is we really could set the standard and help raise this industry.

Skywest Inc made over $150,000,000.00 dollars NET PROFIT last year alone and yet they still nickel and dime the employees while at the same blowing the “we have to be competitive” bugle because “we are skating on thin ice here.” Its just plane ridiculous and insulting. They don’t think I listen to the conference calls where they gloat to the investment community about having the best balance sheet in the industry and and the lowest costs with a "union free" work force that loves them, or that I can read the annual report? They have the president of ILFC, the largest aircraft lease company in the world on their board of directors cutting industry leading rates. They prepay on their engine overhauls a year or more in advance to reduce profit sharing money. They have benefited from some good strategic decisions and even they will admit a fair bit of luck. Keep in mind Jerry was originally against regional jets and had to be talked into it by RR. The point to all this is that Skywest for a variety of reasons has competitive advantages beyond the “industry average” wages Jerry told us were the new direction we were going after voting down Alpa in 1999. During this drive he said we would be at or above the top. ASA will not go broke with the wages they just received. Skywest will continue to make more money than they have ever made even if they paid the pilots of Skywest ten percent more, which is what we should have got after a stalled and bad faith bargained pay agreement

Back to your question though, how does Skywest compare to other regionals? Id say measuring today at this very moment they are right in the middle and quickly sliding towards the bottom. Moral at Skywest is at all time lows based on the guys I have flown with and the comments I have heard. The growth at the regionals is going to slow down across the board other than like what just happened two days ago, exchanging for a few more seats on a handful of airframes. The majors are relatively happy with the number of regional units they have deployed now and the market will stay pretty much the same over the next several years. If the work rules suck and the almighty growth can’t be sold by management to take its place it’s going to get ugly. I know you want to believe that Skywest is like the old Skywest but it is not. I likely won’t be at Skywest this time next year but that doesn’t stop me from fighting the good fight for those that will be. The buck stops here. Let’s get on with it.
 
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Wow. For all you young whipper snappers that think you know best, read this post again and again until it sinks into your thick skull.

Remember when you were a teenager and you thought you knew everything. Mom and Dad would try to point you in the right direction but you just gave them the proverbial "finger" instead. That is the attitude I get from most new pilots here. The senior pilots here have the experience with SkyWest that you don't have yet. "I was at ASA and it sucked.......I was at Mesa and Alpa sucked there." All I'm asking is for you new guys to think for just one second and realize that maybe your senior pilots aka "parents" actually might know what they're talking about. You didin't listen to your parents when you were younger and you see the problems it caused. Don't make that same mistake again.
 
Its amazing, listening to the guys who have been there for under a year or less you would think that everything was perfect over there.
 
120% another GREAT POST! I hope the "youngin's" actually listen to you guys that have been there...done that kind of thing. GOOD LUCK on the Vote!
 
Torque,
I do think your comments are well written. Approaching my decade at SKYW, I to have seen it go from a place I really loved to a place that I like to work at. There is blame that can be thrown, and not everyone in management appears that honest. But with the change, honestly, did you think things would always stay the same. From near 1000 pilots to now 2700+, things have to change. From just a few planes to now hundreds of planes, things have to change. I don't like it. So before you name callers come here and say, "TOOL!", well know that I wish it were the same. But so does everyone else at every airline. The major wish to high heaven they could have the glory days back. Delta, United, NW are not what they ONCE were. We know this, the industry changes. I don't like it either. But how, honestly, how is ALPA going to help that? It is not helping anywhere else with this downward spiral occurring everywhere. If I thought it could, then I would pay the price, but I don't see it happening. I was at a ALPA carrier before, EAGLE, and things there are not so peachy. Not then and most certainly not now. I have a friend at Eagle that told me that in in-doc, they told him to expect at least 24 months on any grievance. Their pilot group's number are not too much different than ours. Now I am not putting you down, but bringing in ALPA won't, I repeat, won't bring old Skywest back.
 
Torque,
I do think your comments are well written. Approaching my decade at SKYW, I to have seen it go from a place I really loved to a place that I like to work at. There is blame that can be thrown, and not everyone in management appears that honest. But with the change, honestly, did you think things would always stay the same. From near 1000 pilots to now 2700+, things have to change. From just a few planes to now hundreds of planes, things have to change. I don't like it. So before you name callers come here and say, "TOOL!", well know that I wish it were the same. But so does everyone else at every airline. The major wish to high heaven they could have the glory days back. Delta, United, NW are not what they ONCE were. We know this, the industry changes. I don't like it either. But how, honestly, how is ALPA going to help that? It is not helping anywhere else with this downward spiral occurring everywhere. If I thought it could, then I would pay the price, but I don't see it happening. I was at a ALPA carrier before, EAGLE, and things there are not so peachy. Not then and most certainly not now. I have a friend at Eagle that told me that in in-doc, they told him to expect at least 24 months on any grievance. Their pilot group's number are not too much different than ours. Now I am not putting you down, but bringing in ALPA won't, I repeat, won't bring old Skywest back.




Dude, seriously...wake up! The slide we're seeing in quality of life, along with backwards slide we've had every year since the company stopped paying COLA(7 years, with 4 more locked in at 0 or 1%) were a huge slap in the face. The company continues to pile up more and more money(using our ever lower costs to purchase ASA), and we get rewarded with what(for dealing BH his ace)???????
 
Torque,
I do think your comments are well written. Approaching my decade at SKYW, I to have seen it go from a place I really loved to a place that I like to work at. There is blame that can be thrown, and not everyone in management appears that honest. But with the change, honestly, did you think things would always stay the same. From near 1000 pilots to now 2700+, things have to change. From just a few planes to now hundreds of planes, things have to change. I don't like it. So before you name callers come here and say, "TOOL!", well know that I wish it were the same. But so does everyone else at every airline. The major wish to high heaven they could have the glory days back. Delta, United, NW are not what they ONCE were. We know this, the industry changes. I don't like it either. But how, honestly, how is ALPA going to help that? It is not helping anywhere else with this downward spiral occurring everywhere. If I thought it could, then I would pay the price, but I don't see it happening. I was at a ALPA carrier before, EAGLE, and things there are not so peachy. Not then and most certainly not now. I have a friend at Eagle that told me that in in-doc, they told him to expect at least 24 months on any grievance. Their pilot group's number are not too much different than ours. Now I am not putting you down, but bringing in ALPA won't, I repeat, won't bring old Skywest back.

The tough times at the majors have benefited Skywest in ways they never imagined. Yet they continue to tell the pilot group that "times are tough," and "we need to lower our costs!" 1 billion in the bank now? Oh yeah ask Clinton W. how long a PIC takes to resolve. How long does it take management to change policy -> overnight... or less! Are you even a line pilot?
Do you think ASA would have been offered better rates than Skywest, 13.5 million in retro pay, scope protection, better reserve rules etc... without ALPA? SAPA begged for simple merger language in the policy manual and they wouldn't even give them that.
That was a great post T120
 
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Torque,
I do think your comments are well written. Approaching my decade at SKYW, I to have seen it go from a place I really loved to a place that I like to work at. There is blame that can be thrown, and not everyone in management appears that honest. But with the change, honestly, did you think things would always stay the same. From near 1000 pilots to now 2700+, things have to change. From just a few planes to now hundreds of planes, things have to change. I don't like it. So before you name callers come here and say, "TOOL!", well know that I wish it were the same. But so does everyone else at every airline. The major wish to high heaven they could have the glory days back. Delta, United, NW are not what they ONCE were. We know this, the industry changes. I don't like it either. But how, honestly, how is ALPA going to help that? It is not helping anywhere else with this downward spiral occurring everywhere. If I thought it could, then I would pay the price, but I don't see it happening. I was at a ALPA carrier before, EAGLE, and things there are not so peachy. Not then and most certainly not now. I have a friend at Eagle that told me that in in-doc, they told him to expect at least 24 months on any grievance. Their pilot group's number are not too much different than ours. Now I am not putting you down, but bringing in ALPA won't, I repeat, won't bring old Skywest back.

Do you ever get the feeling there are certain individuals on here who no matter what the facts say are going to defend their anti-union status quo position to the very end. Do you ever get the feeling that some of these individuals are the very people (ie Sapa reps, new to Skywest, etc) that I described above and that they have agenda that defies logic? Do you ever get the feeling that Skywest could be the wealthiest company on the planet with one hundred trillion dollars in the bank and yet these individuals would always find excuses for management not improving working conditions, quality of life determinants and compensation, in fact quite the opposite stating that bad things could be over the next horizon and instead of one hundred trillion we need five hundred trillion to be better insulated? I mean at what point do the employees really get to “share in the success”?! Skywest's size, bank account and positioning put the pilots of skywest in a better position than almost any regional in the industry to raise the bar. This wont be done with Sapa though.

Troutbait, I do not believe you have a valid argument at least not as long as Skywest has as much money as they do and more pouring in with the long term CONTRACTS they signed with their major partners. If management wanted to do the right thing by its employees akin to how Southwest Airlines does, they would. You see, the schedules could be better, but its gonna cost a little more money to have a few more warm bodies on the property and a willingness to increase standups by a few dozen for example so that quality trips are accessible by more people. This requires premium pay though and the company has gotten so used to squeezing the employees for every last ounce of productivity without freeing up one penny more that to them things like this don’t even enter the realm of possibility anymore. It has become too much fun on a personal level looking like heroes at their investor meetings that they don’t want to change. Bottom line is that the money is there, but the hardliners like Brad have no reason to negotiate. Again, read this earlier thread to see how Brad and the gang arrogantly deny almost every single thing this pilot group has asked for to improve quality of life followed by certain Sapa leadership rolling over issue after issue after issue. Also keep in mind managements self proclaimed number one reason to remain “union free” as you read these facts…..they say by remaining union free they are able to communicate better, make more timely adjustments to work rules and therefore better respond to their employees needs. Further, keep in mind their mission statement which proclaims that they are “fair and consistent in all that they do”. Read on. http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=103812

Again I will repeat part of what I said earlier because I have a feeling you skimmed it with “unions are bad, unions are bad, unions are bad….” running through your head only to repeat your “but Alpa carriers have problems too” mantra. I did not say alpa was perfect nor that it has magically fixed every problem. I did say that it is MUCH better than what the pilots of Skywest have right now, an organization *composed mostly of bad rats at the top, paid for and controlled by the very people we are asking to help improve our quality of life. It’s a conflict of interest and always will be a conflict of interest. If the proverb “by their fruits ye shall know them” stands true then we have got some fruits who are rotten to the core that need to be thrown out before they spoil the lot.

Regarding Alpa, I have said this many times before and probably will say it again, it is not the answer to all of lifes problems but when compared to Sapa it has a lot more horsepower to work with. It can produce much better accountability and has functions Sapa could never dream about implementing. It contains much better tools to build what should be the gold standard of regional airlines, especially considering how profitable Skywest continues to be post 911. For those not familiar, Skywest has benefited enormously from what happened to the industry after 911, yet they continuously preach financial gloom and doom almost every day and four times a day during pay negotiations. No matter how you slice it Alpa is most certainly better than what we have now. To be honest I don’t care if it does take three or five years to get a new contract. At least the sliding will stop and the upside is we really could set the standard and help raise this industry.

* Not all Sapa reps are bad. Especially in the lower ranks there are still some trying their best to do the right thing even when their leadership is full of worms.
 
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