New pilot eager for advice!!!!

[pilotyip]

dal72, only 5 of the 177 airlines presently hiring make the college degree a showstopper. Great airlines like JB, CAL, and SWA do not let the absence of a degree stand in the way of hiring the right guy. Most pilots being hired have degrees because most pilots applying have degrees. I do not believe anyone has stats on the ratio of non-degreed applicants to non-degreed hires.

 

[Almerick07]

A degree is always a nice thing to have, especially when the airlines slow hiring. Hmmm should we hire john doe with a college degree or joe doe with no degree, if you end up never using it it still makes nice resume lettuce. Not to mention there can never be enough emphasis on a back up plan, because sometimes things just dont work out.

 

[dream2fly2007]

Wow, thanks for all the replies. I didn't think I would get this many.

One thing I've seen is that some people don't seem happy flying. I know things have been tough in aviation for the last few years, but you get to fly! That to me is just the coolest thing in the world, and I'd do it for free. Surely if you are making a living doing it you should be happy and grateful? People out there would kill for such a great oppurtunity!

As for the degree, thats something I've decided is probably a must if I don't want to do a nobody job in a prop plane for the rest of my life. I have looked into Embry Riddle. Would it be possible to go there and flight train at Delta Airline Academy at the same time? The way I see it, I could have the degree and the airline connection at the same time. That would seem like a win win situation to me.

 

[hoop]

Edited

That to me is just the coolest thing in the world, and I'd do it for free. Surely if you are making a living doing it you should be happy and grateful? People out there would kill for such a great oppurtunity!

airline connection at the same time. That would seem like a win win situation to me.

Hey guy, I know what your thinking, but don't cheat yourself. I'm 34 years old, and had thought about a career change, but after being on these boards for a couple years, I've realized that I can't take that kind of a hit on pay. I'm a chemist for Uncle Sam, and 20K for a couple years is crazy! I will still get ratings through CFI for the experience, and hopefully enjoy teaching as a side job. I WILL own a little plane one of these days, and be quite happy putting around in it.

Not trying to discourage a dream, but please go back and read what 414 flyer said. One of the most shockingly true statements I have ever read on this board. Take a look at the state of the economy, your economic resources, the "criminal" acts that professional pilots have to deal with, and weigh your options. For me, it didn't end up in the black. I will apologize in advance to the professionals 10 years in advance for having to share airspace with me in my shiny, bright red RV-6.

 

[aviatrix]

the coolest thing in the world, and I'd do it for free.

Noooo!!!!! That's exactly the mentality we're all trying to discourage! PLEASE dont say that!!! It's a job, not a hobby!!!! You need to read a little, kid, before you start jumping into flight training with your check in hand! This industry is going down the toilet, and, no offense, it's due to your type of mentality!!! It's not cool!! It's not neat-o!!! It's our livelihood!!! Mature a little, go fly a C152 around the patch a few times, spin a stall, bounce a landing or two, sweat to earn a few buck for a flight lesson!!! Then come back and chat! Anyone can get a few hours at a pilot academy with a CFI in the other seat, but it's NOT experience!!!

 

[Almerick07]

I have looked into Embry Riddle. Would it be possible to go there and flight train at Delta Airline Academy at the same time?

Oh my god, thought I heard it all.

Stay away from the Flying magazines and stuff. Youre going to go from glossy advertisement syndrome to much worse. If you are decided on a college degree get a degree in something youre interested in outside of aviation. While enjoying the best 4 years of your life take flight lessons at an FBO near by and maybe even flight instruct while still in school. Once you meet 135 mins (1200TT...and some other stuff) get your real experience flying freight. Fly 135 cargo for a couple of years until you can get on with a strong regional or corporate of some sort. You are falling into the trap that is KILLING our profession and making our attitudes sour. When youre paying back $35,000+ in loans youre going to wish you were making more than slave labor flying people around.....PM me on what region youre in and maybe I can help you find something since I just made this decision not too long ago as well.

 

[CHQ_Jobs]

Usually, we just watch you people go at it and try to figure out who is who at your job interviews. However, we wanted to welcome you to the industry, Dream2fly2007, and let you know that you seem to have just the right attitude and desire to become a professional pilot. When the time comes for you to begin your career, please send us a resume. Until then, good luck with your training at Delta Connection Academy.


CHQ Jobs

 

[Goose Egg]

Not trying to discourage a dream, but please go back and read what 414 flyer said. One of the most shockingly true statements I have ever read on this board. Take a look at the state of the economy, your economic resources, the "criminal" acts that professional pilots have to deal with, and weigh your options. For me, it didn't end up in the black.

Agree 100%. On the other hand, however, I did the same analysis and considering my job prospects in the local area and the money I spent (rather didn't spend) on flight training, flying for a living appears to be an extremely viable option. I just have to be choosy as far as who I will work for.

-Goose

 

[Big Dog]

Put it this way... Most of the people that will interview you for QUALITY jobs in aviation have degrees and in the end, most interviewers want to select people like them, that means having a degree. Sure, you can fly w/out a degree, but why limit yourself to only the bottom end of flying jobs.
Consider in some of the best flying jobs, the vast majority of your clients have degrees. It's a lot about shared experience, and people that have four year degrees share something. They feel better connected to you from the get-go. Don't handicap yourself later in life because you were in a hurry to fly, especially if you want a great flying job. And believe me, not all flying jobs are great. Spend the day fighting old equipment, shotty maintenance, low pay & incompetent leadership and the novelty of leaving the ground wears thin. And NO, attending some puppy-pilot mill academy is NOT the same thing as a four year degree. You'll be laughed out of a serious interview if you try to compare.

 

[pilotyip]

Almerick, logic flawed

Almerick, your logic is flawed. You can not make your comparison, because the two will not be equal. John the guy with the degree at age 28 has 3500 hours, 1500 MEL, 1000 Turbine and the Joe the guy without the degree has 5500 hours, 3500 MEL, 1500 TJ PIC under part 121, and two jet type ratings. Who is hired? The degree does not make the difference in this case. It is the quality of the applicants flight time and experience. That is why flying if you want to be a pilot is the most important thing. My opinion only of course.

 

[pilotyip]

For big dog, the reason most people with jobs in flying have degrees is because most people applying have degrees. No one has any stats on the success rate of non-degreed pilots hired vs number applied.

 

[Big Dog]

"other" factors

I hear many stories where the higher time or more experienced guy didn't get the job and the lower time guy did. Must have been some other factor like a degree, or just plain character. There is more to an applicant than just the logbook columns. It all works both ways and it's in the eye of the interviewer.

 

[pilotyip]

Big dog as I said before good airlines SWA, CAL, JB do not let the degree get in the way of making a good decision. I bet you have a degree and you should be proud that you do, it is only natural. But it is the only means to being successful. There are alternate route and I a champion of plan B.

 

[AdlerDriver]

.......One thing I've seen is that some people don't seem happy flying. I know things have been tough in aviation for the last few years, but you get to fly! That to me is just the coolest thing in the world, and I'd do it for free. Surely if you are making a living doing it you should be happy and grateful? People out there would kill for such a great oppurtunity!..........

You would do it for free?? UFB!!!! “some people don’t seem happy flying???” Yah think????!!!! “Things have been tough in aviation??” You don’t have a clue. Talk to the 20-30+ year veterans of major airlines that have seen their retirement funds evaporate forever!! I’m sure most of them are flying around right now thinking “Well, I just took a 50% pay cut, I’m going to need to sell my house and get a condo, my retirement plan is gone, I’m away from my home and family 20 days per month and I’m probably going to need to work at Walmart when I hit mandatory pilot retirement age so I can pay my bills, but at least I get to fly!!” “Yup, that is just the coolest thing!! I’m making a living at it and I’m just so grateful.” Give me a break! You need a serious reality check.



No matter how screwed up this profession gets, no matter how bad the pay, benefits and working conditions get, there will always be some idiot with stars in his eyes willing to bend over and take it. Airline management is foaming at the mouth, hoping to get their hands on a whole airline worth of pilots with your attitude. Don’t you realize that your willingness to work for crap wages with poor work rules is one of the reasons the pilot profession is in a downward spiral? All these pilots who take RJ jobs working for less money than they could make at McDonald’s are not getting experience so they can get their “dream job”. The dream job is gone. Many of them will eventually realize that their current job is the final stop in their career. The rapid expansion of the feeder carriers flying RJs is permanently removing the major airline jobs those RJ pilots once hoped for.



Look what’s happening at Northwest. They are probably going to park all their DC-9s and furlough up to 1200 pilots. The flying that they did with those –9s is going to be farmed out to their feeders flying RJs. Does anyone really think that flying will ever return to the Northwest mainline again? That flying will be gone from NWA forever along with 1200 major airline jobs all you “wannabes” think you’re building time to get. The same thing has already happened at US Airways. They’ve farmed out a ton of their flying to their feeders permanently. Think about that the next time you get all excited that RJ airline X is adding 100 jets and expanding, hiring like crazy, etc. All that expansion simply means that the crappy RJ job you took because you wanted to build time is going to be your career.



I predict by the time our friend who started this post is 30, the only pilots making a respectable living flying passengers will be flying international or for Southwest. Thank goodness I’m a freight-dog now. What we now call “major airlines” will be fractions of their former selves. It is almost impossible for an airline to operate the mixed fleet of aircraft required to fly both domestic and international and remain profitable in both areas. The big boys will give up trying to compete with single-fleet low cost carriers within the USA. They will operate wide-bodies internationally and perform little if any domestic flying (maybe some transcons). They will have minimal expansion and hiring will be at a trickle, mostly to replace retirements. Those “dream jobs” will be few and far between. The airline feeders will get bigger aircraft and will effectively replace the domestic operations of their major airline partners. They will still retain the low pay scales and poor retirement benefits and will have basically created a new B-scale airline. They will be able to do this because of the over-abundant supply of “wannabes” who are willing to go 50 grand into debt buying themselves ratings and then whore themselves out to get a non-existent dream job.



What we really need to do is make it so hard to obtain an ATP that only true professionals with exceptional skills would be able to get and hold it. We need to shrink the pool of truly qualified pilots down to a point that real professionals are in demand. Unfortunately, that’s not going to happen. Especially with pilots like “Skippy” here, willing to work for free. Rant over.

 

[Almerick07]

Almerick, your logic is flawed. You can not make your comparison, because the two will not be equal. John the guy with the degree at age 28 has 3500 hours, 1500 MEL, 1000 Turbine and the Joe the guy without the degree has 5500 hours, 3500 MEL, 1500 TJ PIC under part 121, and two jet type ratings. Who is hired? The degree does not make the difference in this case. It is the quality of the applicants flight time and experience. That is why flying if you want to be a pilot is the most important thing. My opinion only of course.

My logic was 2 equally qualified pilots, 2 guys with 3500TT 1500ME 1000 Turbine one with a degree one without.... Who is Southwest going to hire? Coming from a hiring source SWA they look closely at experiences outside of aviation and proof of work ethic, he told me a degree satisfies both of these. I am in no way saying you cannot build a rewarding career without a degree, but why put yourself behind the curve right away by simply not having a degree. With the surplus of pilots airlines are going to need to find ways to weed out a few. A degree requirement is an obvious way to narrow down your field for practical purposes.
Have you ever seen the SWA application, they have alist of requirements you must check yes to before you can even apply, I can see a four year degree making that list once all our SJS guys build enough time and want to fly for a "real" airline.
And as far as AdlerDriver said:

What we really need to do is make it so hard to obtain an ATP that only true professionals with exceptional skills would be able to get and hold it.

I agree 100% let the kids with SJS sit in the right seat for free, twice as much money for the real professionals
dreamtofly2007....if you want it bad enough you can do it. But dont go into it only following your heart. Congrats at wanting a degree, I am getting one in finance so if my "dream" doesnt pan out I can still be marketable in a different profession. Being a pilot for an airline is a HUGE responsibility, those people in the back are putting their lives in your hands. The airline knows that and only wants pilots who will keep their paying customers safe and those pilots should be compensated fairly. Just so you know $20 an hour is not fair despite what your DCA instructors tell you. Whatver you just dont let this thread take your eyes off your dream, just go about it smartly

 

[Secret Squirrel]

Alderdriver

I hope your optimism in the cargo industry will hold out but I believe your industry is only a few years behind the passenger industry. Look at DHL. They have 4 companies that are going to start fighting for the domestic feed. And it could be more if international companies get the right to fly in the us. Do you think UPS and FedEX are going to allow you to fly airplanes for 50 percent more than your passenger peers? And before you start screaming "NO WAY WE WILL CLOSE THIS $%^&*( place!" Look at the passenger industry only 5 years ago. They were on cloud nine getting the largest pay increases in history.

I wish it were not so but I do not think any area of this industry is going to be sheltered from cuts.

 

[pilotyip]

almerick, how would they be equal? Joe non-degree guy started flying professionally 3-4 yrs before John the degreed guy.

 

[AdlerDriver]

...........Being a pilot for an airline is a HUGE responsibility, those people in the back are putting their lives in your hands. The airline knows that and only wants pilots who will keep their paying customers safe and those pilots should be compensated fairly. Just so you know $20 an hour is not fair despite what your DCA instructors tell you. ...

Oh, how I wish this was really the case. Most passengers choose their pilots with their wallet. It's amazing how little concern they have going with the cheapest ticket/airline they can. Sooner or later, when the airline job is so bad it no longer attracts real professionals, they're going to start getting what they're really paying for.

As far as airline management goes: They just want cheap pilots too. They don't care about the responsibility you take on as the Captain of a passenger jet. It's not their problem, it's the pilot's. If they can get someone to take on that responsibility cheaply (and they can), they don't care if the compensation is fair.

 

[Almerick07]

If they can get someone to take on that responsibility cheaply (and they can), they don't care if the compensation is fair.

This is why we need to help this kid get out of the attitude of I would do it for free.

Oh, how I wish this was really the case. Most passengers choose their pilots with their wallet. It's amazing how little concern they have going with the cheapest ticket/airline they can. Sooner or later, when the airline job is so bad it no longer attracts real professionals, they're going to start getting what they're really paying for.

It would be nice if the airlines treated a higher overhead like everyone else does....raise prices....not lower wages. The airlines are in a downward spiral there is a huge cancer and it is spreading quick, just trying to give this guy some basic insight as to why we should be paid fairly and not accept anything less. Anything wrong in trying to cure SJS before it starts???

 

[Almerick07]

almerick, how would they be equal? Joe non-degree guy started flying professionally 3-4 yrs before John the degreed guy.

Thats fine if you are comfortable taking the risk that aviation will always be there for you. My biggest concern is how applicable 5000TT will be outside of aviation, just incase...